Hey Dewey, you think everyone is still at the parade ?

I'm sure you'll get some answers pretty soon.

Hey, keep up the good work.


454 RATTLER

 

I did it when I did not have a piece big enough to cover a door panel. It was 1/8" material, just make sure you get the meeting edges glued down firmly.

Vince

 

What do Don Taylor and Ron Mangus say? It's foam, and foam can be glued together. Why not seam a layer of 1/8" foam and then put a full layer of 1/8" foam over it to get the 1/4" you want? The first layer will still need to be scuffed, so do a very good job of scuffing. How wide is the foam you're using? It's much easier to buy it 72" wide, then you don't have to worry about any seams.

 

It's much easier to buy it 72" wide, then you don't have to worry about any seams.

I'm not butting sections of foam because I'm short of foam. The problem is I'm covering a compound complex curve and to do it in one piece appears to me to be MUCH more difficult to pull off than to do it in sections.

 

A picture of the area in question would help.

 

A picture of the area in question would help.

Not sure these will be of help for the question about butting foam...but here goes.

The first photo is of the general area of the rear compound/complex corner curve. Panel/section A is a separate piece that comes out separately from the upper portion of the curve (this was necessary to clear the seat belt mounting tab shown at the base of the curve). Sections B & C of the foam are the crux of the matter. They would be glued to the same backing board. I simply wanted to determine if the joint between these two foam pieces can be butted without it telegraphing and if so, any particular tricks for accomplishing that.

This second photo is a close up shot of foam sections B & C noted above and the arrow points to the potential butted seam between these two pieces.

 

The answer is yes, closed cell foam can be glued together at butt joints. I would use foam to foam glue because the set-up time for the glue is only a few seconds instead of waiting for contact adhesive to dry. As far as telegraphing through the fabric, you need to sand the joints flat and then cover the entire area by using contact adhesive and gluing something else that is stretchable, very thin, and can be applied in one piece. While covering the entire area would be ideal, covering the butt joints by themselves with maybe an 8" wide piece may do the trick. This could be something like muslin or Versare. This should be enough to keep the joints from telegraphing through. Why not try doing a separate piece outside the car and see if this works for you. It's also possible that if you sand the joint well enough, the joint won't telegraph through without doing anything. Again, try it outside the car to see what works. I think you have a better chance of it not showing through because it is a concave surface rather than convex.

 

I would use foam to foam glue because the set-up time for the glue is only a few seconds instead of waiting for contact adhesive to dry.

I've been using K-grip to glue the foam to the panels. It says it is for foam to foam as well. HOWEVER, my fear with using K-grip is that it sets up Tooooooo fast. Using it so far I've found there is virtually zero ability to adjust the foam if you don't get it laid down exactly right the first shot. It bonds right now, like most contact cements.

And unlike the flat panels I've done, these small foam sections in the corner curve allow very little margin for error...I need to get that butt joint really tight and accurate AND I need to get the edges where the sections meet the flat panels on each side absolutely accurate as well. So I'm really concerned about how little leeway I have for adjusting the fit if I use a K-grip type contact glue.

I just got some 3M Super Trim to try out on some scrap piece to see if that might give me a little more breathing room to get those corner foam piece adjusted just right. You had indicated in the past that Super Trim would be adequate for vertical panels, just not overhead panels.

...sand the joints flat and then cover the entire area by using contact adhesive and gluing something else that is stretchable, very thin, and can be applied in one piece.

Would K-grip be appropriate as the contact adhesive for this part of the process?

 

I had a compound curve in the corner of my headliner where it rolls down to meet the side and back panel. I used one piece of foam, it was difficult but you can do it if you first place a couple of sheets of wax paper between the foam and the board you are wanting to glue it to. Start in the center of your compound curve and leave that area exposed from the wax paper. Stick it down and smooth it out then move the wax paper out a little on both sides and work the foam down. It may take you more than one attempt to get it right.

Vince

 

Here are some test runs as suggested by Dan.

The first pic is one of my early test panels done some days ago and shows what I want to avoid. On this panel I butted the foam at all four corners at a 45 degree angle. The arrow shows the shadow or telltale sign of this joint. When I put this panel together I knew the pieces of foam were not butted up tightly and I made no attempt to sand it or even it out. And this was the result. I think it is even more visible to the naked eye than to the camera.

Here are the tests I did today butting the foam pieces tightly using 3M Super Trim which did give me a bit less initial bite when the pieces are laid down and allowed me to form a pretty tight butt joint. I also then sanded the top surfaces paying special attention to the joint area. I did these tests with no muslin over the joint. The butt joint runs from top to bottom just about at the center of the vinyl in each shot.

I did two separate panels as pictured and the third shot is a close up of one of the panels. These were taken immediately after laying down the vinyl so I'll delay final judgement until the panels are completely set up and dry. But I can't detect any hint of the joint on either panel at this juncture.

Assuming I can create this tight of a joint between each section of foam on the actual panel, I should be in pretty good shape using your suggestions.

 

Foam to foam glue is just that, it is not high temp contact adhesive, so no, you can't use it for all the steps, only gluing foam to foam in non stressed areas. It can be used for gluing the foam to the panels if it is a small area, or if there will be stitching or something else to hold it down, but not a large area because it will let go when the temperature is above about 110 degrees. I have posted tons of information on this subject, but you don't seem to have read any of it. You have read everything ever printed from anybody who has ever gotten a book published on car interiors, but you take everything I tell you as tainted in some way. I guarantee that I have BY FAR more upholstery credentials than any of the people whose books you have read. I CAN'T HELP YOU IF YOU WON'T LISTEN TO ME.
There are certain things you just can't learn out of a book, especially when you have a vehicle like yours that is unique, and nobody has ever tried to upholster one before. This is not a '66 Mustang or a '57 Chevy. You can't learn world class upholstery from a book without somebody standing right next to you while you're learning. You haven't even been able to get a simple curved corner on a small insert panel right (post 11), and that is a baby step. The panel you show in post #11 should have not been spliced anywhere, the outside perimeter should have been one piece and then there would have been no problem with a splice showing. Is there more waste by doing it that way? Of course there is, but it wouldn't have to be done over two or three times, would it? In fact, if you cut the foam carefully, you could have done the whole panel, including the center piece, with one piece of foam, which would have been far less wasteful. How much closed cell foam does it take to do it two or three times? You can be penny wise and pound foolish with a lot of things, but this is not one of them.

 

Another option instead of using a straight butt joint is to scarf the joints at an angle. This makes for even less of a visible seam.

Doug

 

You are correct that a scarf joint would be preferred over a butt joint, but no joints would have been the way to go. This could have been done without any joints. This is not steel or wood, it is foam that has elasticity and can mold to a shape.

 

Agreed. If a joint can be avoided, definitely do so.

Doug

 

Right on, Brother.

 

... I have posted tons of information on this subject, but you don't seem to have read any of it. You have read everything ever printed from anybody who has ever gotten a book published on car interiors, but you take everything I tell you as tainted in some way.

Dan has articulated some very accurate observations and leveled some well deserved criticism of my upholstery efforts thus far. He is absolutely correct. I have read a number of books published on upholstery, paying special attention to those that came most highly recommended by our members here on HR.Com. These included "Custom Auto Interiors" by Taylor and Mangus, "Auto Upholstery & Interiors" by Bruce Caldwell, "How to Restore and Customize Auto Upholstery" by Dennis Parks, and "Automotive Upholstery Handbook" by Don Taylor.

Research and reading come as an old habit for me, particularly when tackling some new area of hot rodding. Together with hands on experimentation and testing, it's a difficult habit for me to break. And I apologize for that.

Unfortunately when one gathers together a large number of authors and "experts", the advice can sometime be conflicting. And I apologize to Dan for any slight that may have been caused by the attention I may have paid to the books and authors named above.

...I guarantee that I have BY FAR more upholstery credentials than any of the people whose books you have read. I CAN'T HELP YOU IF YOU WON'T LISTEN TO ME...

Again, my apologies to Dan for any instance where there may have been conflicting recommendations among the experts and I failed to give his methods the degree of attention he feels they deserve. This was a clear oversight on my part.

...There are certain things you just can't learn out of a book, especially when you have a vehicle like yours that is unique, and nobody has ever tried to upholster one before.... You can't learn world class upholstery from a book without somebody standing right next to you while you're learning.

Once again, a very accurate observation. Unfortunately very few of us have the luxury of a full time upholstery coach who can stand over our shoulder and tutor us at each step. Most of us muddle along by reading, asking questions of others, conducting test and experiments with the materials at hand, and practicing the techniques and methods we need to master.

This is how I've made my way through every other part of building a car from scratch. And the good people of many other HR.Com forums have always been willing to happily help answer my questions and guide me along the way. Folks in "suspension", "engines", "paint and exterior" and the general rodding forums have been more than welcoming to my rudimentary questions and my occasional misstep. So "interior" has been a new experience for me. It is the first forum where I've encountered outright hostility to my questions and my musings. Obviously I have a lot to lean regarding how to conduct myself here.

...You haven't even been able to get a simple curved corner on a small insert panel right (post 11), and that is a baby step. The panel you show in post #11 should have not been spliced anywhere, the outside perimeter should have been one piece and then there would have been no problem with a splice showing.

In the past, in other forums and my journal, I have been quite willing to take pictures and share with others my tests, my experiments and my early efforts, letting others see my failures, warts and all. My thinking was that by seeing my mistakes and missteps, others could avoid them and learn at my expense rather than theirs. Perhaps that thinking is wrong and I shouldn't post up those errors and make them subject to belittlement and ridicule.

The panel referenced in post #11 is just such practice panel. It was in a series of practice panels I documented in my journal beginning at entry #442 here. And you are right to belittle and ridicule the effort. It was my very first attempt at building such a panel...ever.

Unlike the Masters here in "Interior", the rest of us have to start somewhere. And I prefer starting with test panels, like the one in post #11, using leftover or discarded materials and push the envelop a bit to see the results of things like slicing and butting those corners. I learned a great deal from that first panel. Granted, to the eyes of a Master, it is a POS. But to my eyes, it was a thing of beauty, like the little child's plaster of Paris ash tray with his hand-print in the center of it. Only a parent could see it as art. And only a parent recognizes it as a first step in a long long learning process.

...And I promise you this, I'm not spending the rest of my life answering your posts trying to keep you from making a gigantic mess out of this vehicle's interior. You're way beyond that point already.

This quote was originally part of Dan's post #12 which appeared here. It was later edited out but I include it here because it is another well deserved criticism of my efforts. We novices and newbies often forget what a nuisance we can be with our pesky questions and our erroneous assumptions. And what a huge favor we are granted when one of the Masters here takes the time to entertain our inquiries. And I have been quite guilty in my past failures to properly thank all these fine folks who keep me from blowing myself up.

And it is always good medicine to get a wake up call letting you know you are "well beyond...making a gigantic mess" of your project. In fact, I think I will inscribe those words on a big plaque and mount it on the wall of my shop. Just a constant reminder that I am forever learning...and forever just muddling along.

 

I edit all my posts, for spelling, wording, and especially when I think I've made a stupid incendiary statement. That quote was not intended for public consumption because it was written at the end of a very bad day, and all my frustration from the day was in that sentence. I edited it out because it was nasty and disrespectful. Thanks for dragging it out so you could show everyone what a jerk I am. Maybe I should give everyone my take on why you are doing the upholstery work yourself.
You talk about my "methods". They are no different from the things you found in the books you read, they are tried and true methods that all upholsterers use.
You asked a question, and I answered it to the best of my ability and knowledge. I'm sorry for wounding your ego.

 

It seems to me that there are only three reasons to be on HR.com

1...To Learn

2...To Offer Help

3...To Be Entertained


I think that nasty comments should be kept to ourselves and NOT posted here.

The original post was in my email this morning. I must say I was a bit surprised at what had been posted.

I suggest that the "dirty laundry and personal problems" with other members be kept to ourselves.

I'm tired of seeing some of these threads becoming " pissing matches" between a couple of members.


454 RATTLER

 

I'm sorry for wounding your ego.

Quite the contrary. I owe you a debt of gratitude. You raised my motivation level for this project by a factor of about 10.

 

all this cause of foam! haha

 

If you knew anything about the situation, you'd know it has very little to do with foam.

 

Dan,
When you first started posting on HR, your contributions were beneficial to the furum along with the other professional stitchers who were posting at that time. Since you became moderator you have been successful in running off just about everyone but the newbee's with your attitude and ego. Since you are a self proclaimed "master" you seem to feel that your way is the best way and any other method is "wrong" and you will continue to brow-beat any poster who may disagree until they leave the forum.

You and I have not had any issues on the forum, in fact I supported you in the beginning. I have changed my opinion since then. You will notice I have not posted here in a long time, but I visit here just about every day. I have watched you turn this into the DanTwoLakes forum with your prolific and opioniated posting, which frankly turn me off and I suspect many others as well.

I'm posting this because it just needed to be said.

Jim

 

Thank you , Jim for that candid assessment. I have always tried to post what I think is interesting or different, and what I think will help the original poster with whatever project he or she is working on. I have never proclaimed myself anything other than a professional upholsterer with a lot of experience in many different areas. As far as "prolific" posting, there are guys on here with 10,000 posts and I have about 2,700. As far as being opinionated, I have opinions just like everyone else, so I guess maybe I am. I have tried to pass on what I know to people who have no upholstery experience to the best of my ability, and explain things in a way that is as simple and easy to follow as I could make it so they could complete whatever project they were working on. I have tried to do that without ever calling anybody names or telling them they were stupid. I have answered every PM question anyone has ever sent me. I don't hide my e-mail address or my phone number, and people are welcome to call me or e-mail me any time. I'm sorry you think I have turned this into some exercise in vanity on my part, that was not my intention.

 

Dear fordSR: It is my considered OPINION that you are off base with the criticism of Dan. I am also a Moderator on this site, but that is not why I'm sticking up for Dan. I just can't stand to see this sort of thing taking place here. Everyone on this site is expected to have an opinion except for the Moderators, did I read that right?

I have seen nothing in all of Dan's posts that indicate anything you have accused him of, quite the contrary he is always one of the first responders to offer advise when a question is asked.

In the future I would suggest that you keep the thread topic on subject and if you do not have anything positive to contribute leave the personal attacks to either PM's or keep them to yourself.

Cheers
Vince

 

Ok guys I will weigh in and say there is such a thing as "Good Enough" I do not think any of us will ever get to "perfection" as there is always something that we can learn..So lets forget the perfection and do the best we know how with what we have..Nuff said...

Sam