well here we go again - more problems..............

I was disassembling and cleaning my hydraulic lifters on my 454. It was going well until I got to the rear cylinders and found I could not remove the lifters from their bores on cylinders 7 & 8. Upon further examination I discovered there was slight damage to the cam lobes (on the edges) and the edges of the lifter bases. The lifters would not come out of their bores as a result - clearance was too tight. It appears the cam lobes are not aligned well with the lifters (is that normal on a BBC?) and eventually the lobe edges starting eating away at the lifter bases.

I'm running a comp cams 11-250-3 hydraulic extreme energy FT cam.

What do I do now? I need to get those lifters out and they won't clear the bores.

1) do I have to pull and replace the cam?

2) do I have to replace the lifters?

3) what caused this? Are the cam lobes and lifters supposed to be perfectly aligned - mine are not. I don't want this to happen again.

Lee

You will have to replace the cam and lifters. The cam lobes and lifters bores are somewhat offset on a BBC. I think if you pull the cam you should be able to push the bad lifters down and have enough clerance to get them out. Most likely the oil your running was lacking metal wear constiuents like zinc...this is a common problem these days.

 

typical comp cam.

Everyone I know including myself have had bad luck with comp cams. Everyone I have talked to that ran one had it go flat on them, or it was starting to when they refreshed their engine. I guess one of my buddies did run one for a little while that didnt go flat on him, that one broke into three pieces. I did all the proper break in on mine, used the right oil and plenty of prelube, ran about 20 minutes, all the lobes looked like they should, except number 2 exhaust which was round after 20 mins. Looked like I had two fuel pump eccentrics. Maybe their billet cams are ok, but I will never buy another cast one from them.

 

Everyone I know including myself have had bad luck with comp cams. Everyone I have talked to that ran one had it go flat on them, or it was starting to when they refreshed their engine. I guess one of my buddies did run one for a little while that didnt go flat on him, that one broke into three pieces. I did all the proper break in on mine, used the right oil and plenty of prelube, ran about 20 minutes, all the lobes looked like they should, except number 2 exhaust which was round after 20 mins. Looked like I had two fuel pump eccentrics. Maybe their billet cams are ok, but I will never buy another cast one from them.

interesting you should say that - I'm not getting a "warm and fuzzy" on them either. their customer service sucks, their catalogs and specs keep changing - often the specs for the same part number change - like valve springs. I will likely not choose comp cams again.

What cam brand do you guys recommend?

 

Everyone I know including myself have had bad luck with comp cams. Everyone I have talked to that ran one had it go flat on them, or it was starting to when they refreshed their engine. I guess one of my buddies did run one for a little while that didnt go flat on him, that one broke into three pieces. I did all the proper break in on mine, used the right oil and plenty of prelube, ran about 20 minutes, all the lobes looked like they should, except number 2 exhaust which was round after 20 mins. Looked like I had two fuel pump eccentrics. Maybe their billet cams are ok, but I will never buy another cast one from them.

I had a similiar experince with crane...my opinion is none of them make them like they used to and oil is also a major problem too. After my flat tappet failure I switched to a hydraulic roller.

 

I had a similiar experince with crane...my opinion is none of them make them like they used to and oil is also a major problem too. After my flat tappet failure I switched to a hydraulic roller.

I will add that Summit took care of my failure under warranty.

 

It appears the cam lobes are not aligned well with the lifters (is that normal on a BBC?) and eventually the lobe edges starting eating away at the lifter bases.

Lee... You might have this issue which is common with BBC`s... Think you can do a search for "lifter bore" and find that alot of BBC blocks do have this problem and the lifter bores have to be corrected to fix the issue otherwise it will continue...

Could possibly be a defective cam but when its in the back end bores cylinders 7-8 then it really becomes suspect...? Since you have it out you can have a machinest check it to be sure before spending any more just to find its a block issue...

 

Lee,check into Isky's line of cams for your application. Nice quality stuff!

 

[QUOTE Are the cam lobes and lifters supposed to be perfectly aligned - mine are not. I don't want this to happen again.
Lee[/QUOTE]

I think that in most engines the cam lobe and lifter do not share a common centerline by design. Offsetting the lifter slightly causes it to rotate in the bore, thus preventing the cam lobe from wearing a groove in the contact surface.

Bob

 

my engine blder had same problem...he found out thru comp cam that the govt has removed a lot of the additives from atomotive oils...he found that using rotella diesel truck oil and 2 cans of gm o.e.s supplments supplys the cam and lifters with the needed metals for break in....i broke in high lift flat tappet cam w/o any problems

 

What I`m referring to is lifter bore indexing in relation to the camshaft...

Just looking at the alignment will not tell you squat... It has to be measured correctly to know for sure...

 

.he found that using rotella diesel truck oil and 2 cans of gm o.e.s supplments supplys the cam and lifters with the needed metals for break in....i broke in high lift flat tappet cam w/o any problems

The lack of ZDDP in oils is only going to get worse. The latest revision to diesel oil specs has removed it from that oil also, as many diesel engines now have catalytic converters. And, GM has discontinued their E.O.S. additive.

Bob

 

Can this cam problem be due to a shifted cam bearing restricting oil flow? I've installed cam bearings where the oil hole didn't line up perfectly. I then remove that bearing, throw it away and install a fresh one for fear reinstalling the same bearing can lead to turning in the bore and shutting off the oil.

Some forty years ago the majority of all iron cam blanks came from a foundry in western Michigan.... Muskegon, if I recall.

I'm guessing todays stuff might come from china (not worthy of a capital c on china) and who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men interested in trying to stay in business. Thank the EPA and the tree huggers for putting so many foundries out of business back then. Is the Sierra Club a subsidiary of OPEC?

 

guys - excellent responses. thankyou very much.

please respond more - there is more to this issue I'm sure.

Question: a couple guys on another forum are telling me to basically rebuild the engine because piston pins and bearings are likely to fail now that tiny pieces of lifter/cam lobe metal may have traveled through the motor.

What do you guys think of that? I'm kind of angry that people would say that like it's "easy and cheap to do". I have no shop, no space, little money, little time, so that would be a MAJOR, MAJOR undertaking for me. Do you guys think the motor needs to get pulled out (currently in the car in my garage) and basically rebuilt, or do you think I can take my chances and just replace the cam/lifters, run the motor, then change the oil.

Please be honest and consider my situation. This is NOT a race car, it's a saturday night special

Lee

 

guys - excellent responses. thankyou very much.

please respond more - there is more to this issue I'm sure.

Question: a couple guys on another forum are telling me to basically rebuild the engine because piston pins and bearings are likely to fail now that tiny pieces of lifter/cam lobe metal may have traveled through the motor.

What do you guys think of that? I'm kind of angry that people would say that like it's "easy and cheap to do". I have no shop, no space, little money, little time, so that would be a MAJOR, MAJOR undertaking for me. Do you guys think the motor needs to get pulled out (currently in the car in my garage) and basically rebuilt, or do you think I can take my chances and just replace the cam/lifters, run the motor, then change the oil.

Please be honest and consider my situation. This is NOT a race car, it's a saturday night special

Lee

Well, all that metal that came off the cam and tappets are in that engine somewhere, and time will tell as to where it is, it's generally imbedded in the piston skirts and will cause the pistons to become tight in the bore. Imbedded on the bearings, etc.
If you want it too live,tear it down and inspect it

 

Well, all that metal that came off the cam and tappets are in that engine somewhere, and time will tell as to where it is, it's generally imbedded in the piston skirts and will cause the pistons to become tight in the bore. Imbedded on the bearings, etc.
If you want it too live,tear it down and inspect it

thanks.

I should add that there is very little damage to the lifters (3) and almost no damage to the cam lobes. very very slight, just enough to make those 3 lifters no clear the lifter bore. Its not like chunks of metal are missing, rather it's tiny fragments that came off.

Lee

 

Hi Lee,
Do yourself a favor & pull it & inspect it,
this is one of those situations where you
either pay a smaller sum now, or a lot later.
that crapola is in there & it needs to be
cleaned out, you may not need to replace
anything, but you won't know until you
take it apart & look, or take your chances
but it sucks breaking down somewhere
out by b f e cause they never breakdown at home.
Good luck,
rich
About the cam & lifters, did you do the cam
change for the comp cam, or was that don by
the previous owner?

 

LEE:
Is your 454 block a high mileage one? A problem that can crop up in all used blocks is that the lifter bores can wear,particularly on the lower ends,and the effect is that oil loss from the galleries can tend to starve the rear lifters.
For the sake of your own peace of mind,I would want to know that you didn't have any pieces of grit from the lobes/lifters embedded in any other critical parts.At a minimum,I'd want to pull a lower bearing shell off the #5 main and look for damage.as that seems to me to be the first area a wound might show up.
I believe you're committed to pulling the cam and trying to get any damaged lifters out through the bottom of the bores. While you've got them out,you would be doing yourself a favor to get those lifter bores measured. If you've got more than .002" clearance for your lifters,a full teardown is probably warranted,and from there you can either get the lifter bores bushed (you can also have them correctly indexed at that point too,which will make your cam timing and lift more accurate) or start over with your internals in a fresher block.
And yes,whatever else you do,unless you're running a roller cam always use all new lifters with a new cam.
My two cents,as the newbie to this site.
392 A100

 

Hi Lee,
Do yourself a favor & pull it & inspect it,
this is one of those situations where you
either pay a smaller sum now, or a lot later.
that crapola is in there & it needs to be
cleaned out, you may not need to replace
anything, but you won't know until you
take it apart & look, or take your chances
but it sucks breaking down somewhere
out by b f e cause they never breakdown at home.
Good luck,
rich
About the cam & lifters, did you do the cam
change for the comp cam, or was that don by
the previous owner?

Richard

I did the previous cam change - about 2 years ago (700 miles) did it by the book because I had no previous knowledge or experience. what are your thoughts.

Lee

 

LEE:
Is your 454 block a high mileage one? A problem that can crop up in all used blocks is that the lifter bores can wear,particularly on the lower ends,and the effect is that oil loss from the galleries can tend to starve the rear lifters.
For the sake of your own peace of mind,I would want to know that you didn't have any pieces of grit from the lobes/lifters embedded in any other critical parts.At a minimum,I'd want to pull a lower bearing shell off the #5 main and look for damage.as that seems to me to be the first area a wound might show up.
I believe you're committed to pulling the cam and trying to get any damaged lifters out through the bottom of the bores. While you've got them out,you would be doing yourself a favor to get those lifter bores measured. If you've got more than .002" clearance for your lifters,a full teardown is probably warranted,and from there you can either get the lifter bores bushed (you can also have them correctly indexed at that point too,which will make your cam timing and lift more accurate) or start over with your internals in a fresher block.
And yes,whatever else you do,unless you're running a roller cam always use all new lifters with a new cam.
My two cents,as the newbie to this site.
392 A100

ok, what is the specified clearance range between the lifters and the bores? If I take lifter bore measurements and I am within the specified range, I can avoid having the bores machined and guided right? Hopefully they are within range. I do not know the history of that block. I know that it got a bore job 4 years ago (700 miles) (.060" over) so hopefully whoever did that checked the lifter bores also.

 

Lee:
As you might tell from my username ,I'm a MoPar guy,hence don't know the lifter to bore clearance #s for your rat offhand.Mopar spec'd the early hemis at .0025" max clearance ,but the prefered # is .0005" to .001". I doubt seriously that that # is dependent on make,although the larger .904" dia. of the Chrysler lifter may actually allow a larger clearance.
AS F-Bird '88 pointed out, the contact faces of the lifter and lobe ARE splash lubed,but part of that splash is from leakage around the lifter down through the lifter bore and on to the cam. It's the position of your wiped lobes and lifters that makes me suspicious of the lifter bores. Just a thought,and something to check since you're going to be pulling lifters and the cam regardless.
You'd like to think someone would have checked the lifter bores,and maybe they did,but then maybe they didn't either. They're something most street level builders don't seem to think about. It's a must on the 1st gen Chrysler hemis because both the rockers and main/rod journals take their oil from the same galleries that feed the lifter bores. Loose lifters= starved bearings.
If your lifter bores check out,let 'em run. Street motor,low use,low bucks somethings have to be left at ok instead of perfect,I understand.But DO at least pull the pan and look for damage from grit in a couple of bearings,and traces of abrasion on the lower piston skirts if /where they protrude below the
bottom of the bores. Best of luck,I know it's got to hurt.
392A100

 

Here's how I see it. Yes, there's some stray metal in the system somewhere. It would have been washed into the sump, and runs the risk of getting into the oiling system. However, there's a screen on the pump inlet, and the oil is filtered before it goes through the oil galleys, so the probability that it will reach any critical parts is small. You've got little to loose by putting it back together with new cam and lifters and running it. New oil filter, of course. After an hour of running, I'd remove the filter and open it up to check for metal debris. If you find some, it's been through the pump but the filter has done it's job and caught it. If you don't, then the metal has probably settled to the bottom of the pan. Not the best approach, but the qualifier was to suggest what's best under your circumstances.

Bob

 

you guys are the best. this site is fantastic. all of you guys (to many names to mention) have all provided outstanding information and opinions and I benefited from each response.

If I "pull the pan" for inspection purposes, I will need to lift the motor right? It's a 72 Nova. I believe the motor has to be lifted to pull the pan.

Is there any way to pull the oil pan without lifting the motor? If I have to pull the motor mount bolts to raise the motor, do I have to disconnect the transmission bellhousing and crossmember, or can all that stay connected and give me enough room to remove the oil pan? If I recall, it is VERY difficult to remove the bellhousing bolts on that thing, they are almost impossible to gain access to. Not to "complain" but I have no shop space (wife's car in garage) no engine hoist, and no engine stand. See what I mean? If I had those things I would definitely pull the motor.

Here is a picture of my "Problem Child"

Lee

 

Go buy yourself a cherry picker and a engine stand, tell the wife that it will be your X Mas present. If your like the rest of us you'll need it rather often (so will friends).

Just a thought when I rebuilt my 350 I used a GMMP cam off ebay and cheapo summit lifters. I used the lowest grade dino oil I could find and haven't had any problems yet. This is in my daily driver. Nice car I wish I had my 68 back but I needed a garage.

 

Did you remove the center spring for the break end?I did the same on my big block,In mess up a lobe.I called them in they made it good,Mine was a comp cam too.They told me it was the oil.They told me to run rotella T.Put the new cam in and broke it in with out the center springs like it say's to do.Which i think is a lot of extra work.But work out great. :thumbup:

 

Did you remove the center spring for the break end?I did the same on my big block,In mess up a lobe.I called them in they made it good,Mine was a comp cam too.They told me it was the oil.They told me to run rotella T.Put the new cam in and broke it in with out the center springs like it say's to do.Which i think is a lot of extra work.But work out great. :thumbup:

the springs I'm running (comp cams 911's) are single springs. so there was not requirement to pull the center spring during break in.

Lee