Also i was told to replace with the master cylinder with a manual disc/drum one. Do the make those for the torino??

You will need a Non-Power Disc/Drum M/C and a combination valve (METERING-PRESSURE DIFFERENTIAL-PROPORTIONING-REAR RESIDUAL). If the GRANADA was non-power, you could use that M/C and valve (may have to go to adjustable proportioning valve).

As far as tie-rod ends, you will most likely have to figure that out once torn down. Same for hoses. Unless someone here has down the same conversion successfully, it will be on a trial and error basis.

The GRANADA upgrade will change basic parts swapping. The 69 came with manual front discs but you already have the GRANADA setup. No big deal. It will go.

Your present wheels will not fit over the larger hub on the GRANADA rotors.

 

Ok good, so I will need to locate a correct MC. No big deal. I was planning to get an adjustable prop. valve since other parts from the granada are not available. I think your right on the trial by error as far as the tie rod length goes, we'll just have to see. Also, I have 16x8 torque thrust wheels so clearance should not be a problem.

The older guy warned me about using the large disc's without power assist. I still think that it will be an aprovement over the drums, but may require more foot effort...the conversion for the power assist is expensive, and locating a pedal assymbly is getting harder these day. Is is "unsafe" to drive 11" brakes without power assist?

 

Ok good, so I will need to locate a correct MC. No big deal. I was planning to get an adjustable prop. valve since other parts from the granada are not available. I think your right on the trial by error as far as the tie rod length goes, we'll just have to see. Also, I have 16x8 torque thrust wheels so clearance should not be a problem.

The older guy warned me about using the large disc's without power assist. I still think that it will be an aprovement over the drums, but may require more foot effort...the conversion for the power assist is expensive, and locating a pedal assymbly is getting harder these day. Is is "unsafe" to drive 11" brakes without power assist?

hardly...

You have to realize during this time period, manual disc were widely used.

The difference (main) is the size of the M/C piston. Usually, a manual M/C will use a larger piston the exert more hydraulic force.

If going to an adjustable proportioning valve, I still would use a separate front metering valve, a pressure differential valve (for warning light) and make certain there is a 10lb residual valve in the rear circuit.

 

:thumbup: Sweet, you guys rock. Great info thanks

 

Residual valve...can someone help explain what this does.

Also is this something I can pick up through summit, jegs, O'reilly? Im having a hard time finding info on it.

Also, from the looks or it I will be re-plumbing all the lines...Brakes and hydro lines are a new thing for me thats ok, thats what I bought the car for.

 

Residual valve...can someone help explain what this does.

Also is this something I can pick up through summit, jegs, O'reilly? Im having a hard time finding info on it.

The residual valve holds ten pounds on a drum brake system when the brakes release to keep the spring on the shoes from collapsing the wheel cylinders.

Residual valves can be found in the end of the cylinder in ford fruit jar single master cylinders, where the brake lines screw into the master cylinder on some dual cylinders, one in the rear line only on front disc rear drum systems, or in the combination valve rear line only.

You can remove the residual valve from the master cylinder where the brake line screws in with a sheet metal screw. Screw it in and then pull. It will come right out.

All valving should be available through SUMMIT.

 

Granada swap parts list

Norman Master provides some good background and a parts list on "the granada swap" at http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~stanchfi/brake-conversion-60-64.html

if you're looking for an inexpensive rear disc conversion for either 8-inch or 9-inch Ford, look here: http://www.steeltechsolutions.com/REAR_DISC_PAGE_CODE.html

Let me know how it goes. I just picked up a cherry '64 Merc Monterey Marauder, and the disc brake swap is project #1 for me.
Walt

 

It looks like the guys have covered all of the bases pretty well.
On the Master cylinder.
Check some online sources such as www.partsamerica.com and www.napaonline.com both are good sources to find out if hard parts are available through regular (not the Collector car parts vendors) and give you a pretty good idea of what the price should be.
Ford is pretty good about using a limited number of chassis part numbers for a great number of years making it easy to do swaps.

 

...The difference (main) is the size of the M/C piston. Usually, a manual M/C will use a larger piston the exert more hydraulic force....

You got this one mixed up a bit. In order to create more line pressure (required for disc brakes) you will need a smaller bore master cylinder then a power setup.

Somewhere just under 1" should do well for manual brakes.

 

You got this one mixed up a bit. In order to create more line pressure (required for disc brakes) you will need a smaller bore master cylinder then a power setup.

Somewhere just under 1" should do well for manual brakes.

...sheesh...

 

The guys at Oreilly we're able to pick out a non-power DISK/DRUM MC so hopefully its the right one. These sources are great guys, thanks. Without pulling the MC apart how can you tell bore size?

Anyway im sending the spindles off to get a nice cleaning today, and should get them powder coated tomorrow.

Still though I dont think anyone explained to me what the risidual does.

 

Without pulling the MC apart how can you tell bore size?...Still though I dont think anyone explained to me what the residual does.

There should be enough of the bore visible from the back to measure. If not try looking up what you got on www.napaonline.com as they list a bunch of good info there (sometimes even caliper bore diameter which is a very hard one to find).

A residual pressure valve keeps its rated pressure (normally 2 or 10psi) on the opposite side of it from the master cylinder. In the case of disc/drum you will need a 10psi valve on the line for the back brakes. This will help hold some pressure against the drum brake return springs that are pulling the shoes away from the drum. As you apply force on the peddle the line pressure ahead of the valve will increase until it reaches 10psi and then will allow pressure to go down the line to the drums.

If a residual pressure valve is used alone on a disc/drum braking system the rear brakes will do no work until the front brakes are over 10psi. This isn't too bad - it will just make the front pads wear out a bit quicker. The factory installs a hold off valve (normally inside the combination valve with the proportioning valve, idiot light switch, and residual pressure valve) in the front brakes so that no braking is done until the rear line pressure required to overcome the return springs is reached.

 

:thumbup: :thumbup: Thats exactly the info I need. This place is like the instant google for car guys. I'll check out napa. Thanks for the great info.

From what i've read the swap will be mostly indentical to the mustang swap...but we'll see,

 

A residual pressure valve keeps its rated pressure (normally 2 or 10psi) on the opposite side of it from the master cylinder.

In the case of disc/drum you will need a 10psi valve on the line for the back brakes. This will help hold some pressure against the drum brake return springs that are pulling the shoes away from the drum. As you apply force on the peddle the line pressure ahead of the valve will increase until it reaches 10psi and then will allow pressure to go down the line to the drums.

If a residual pressure valve is used alone on a disc/drum braking system the rear brakes will do no work until the front brakes are over 10psi. This isn't too bad - it will just make the front pads wear out a bit quicker. The factory installs a hold off valve (normally inside the combination valve with the proportioning valve, idiot light switch, and residual pressure valve) in the front brakes so that no braking is done until the rear line pressure required to overcome the return springs is reached.

ain:

Now hold on just a moment. There are two ratings of RESIDUAL VALVES, one two lbs. and the other 10 lbs. They both have a different task (and there are other uses but not important here).

The 2lb. residual valve is used in disc/drum or disc/disc where the M/C is installed under the fluid level of the front caliper, its' purpose to keep the brake fluid from siphoning back into the master cylinder (via gravitational pull).

The 10lb. residual valve is used in a disc/drum application to;

• [1] To maintain a small hydraulic pressure on the rear wheel cylinders to keep the brake shoes closer to the drum (prevents full retraction) to energize the rear shoes more quickly upon application (as drum brakes energize more slowly than disc), and
  
  [2] To not allow the brake shoes to slam against the wheel cylinder pistons upon release (acts as a shock absorber), possibly allowing air to be drawn into the wheel cylinders.

The rear cylinders have a constant 10lb. line pressure against them (after initial application) . The front metering valve limits hydraulic pressure to the front discs until the rear brakes have become energized. This rating will be far above the 10lb. residual valve.

Most modern M/C's will have a 10lb. residual valve installed either in the rear brake port (drum brakes), or possibly the rear port of the proportioning valve, to keep the rear shoes slightly away from the stops.

It is also not an idiot light, but a system warning lamp to alert the driver that there is a hydraulic failure in the system.

The difference(s) in M/C bore size not only determine pressue/volume delivered, but also to required driver pedal pressure exerted.

 

The rear cylinders have a constant 10lb. line pressure against them (after initial application) . The front metering valve limits hydraulic pressure to the front discs until the rear brakes have become energized. This rating will be far above the 10lb. residual valve.

So are you saying here that the rear brakes will never have over 10psi in them? That sure isn't the case. The residual pressure valve keeps the pressure at its rated value when there is less pressure on the master cylinder side (i.e. little or no peddle force). As soon as the pressure on the pressure on the master side is over the rated pressure it will open up and allow that pressure to go to the rear brakes.

The rest of the differences seem to me to be just semantics...Idiot light vs. system warning lamp...same thing different name.

Maybe we should just give him a link to what a factory valve does...
http://www.dippy.org/svcman/sm05d.html

 

So are you saying here that the rear brakes will never have over 10psi in them? That sure isn't the case.

Surely not. Please point to me where I said that. I only enlightened the intended use of residual valves.

The residual pressure valve keeps the pressure at its rated value when there is less pressure on the master cylinder side (i.e. little or no peddle force). As soon as the pressure on the pressure on the master side is over the rated pressure it will open up and allow that pressure to go to the rear brakes.

Didn't I say that? Please confirm as I am getting a little long in the tooth and sometimes babble.

The rest of the differences seem to me to be just semantics...Idiot light vs. system warning lamp...same thing different name.

An idiot light refers to oil pressure, water temp, whatever. Certainly not a hydraulic brake failure. How many do you think do brake system modifications and never make the lamp operative?

Maybe we should just give him a link to what a factory valve does...

http://www.dippy.org/svcman/sm05d.html

You go to ten different references, you get ten different song and dances (especially vendor sites-they are there to sell). It has to be explained so that the average Joe can understand it.

He doesn't need to know complete theory, just what pertains to his application. Volumes could be written on the subject and interpretations.

 

Great...so we are having an argument over idiot light vs warning indicator. Is that the only thing you have against my first post?

Yes I have disabled my "idiot light". If you could give me a way to hook it up I would do it. I have 4 wheel disc brakes and only an adjustable proportioning valve. At the moment I don't even have an e-brake (maybe you call it a parking brake).

 

Great...so we are having an argument over idiot light vs warning indicator. Is that the only thing you have against my first post?

I wasn't aware that I was participating in an argument. I will shut my mouth...er...fingers.

Yes I have disabled my "idiot light".

ain:

If you could give me a way to hook it up I would do it.

Look at thumbnail below....

At the moment I don't even have an e-brake (maybe you call it a parking brake).

ain:

Depending on which caliper style you are using, most are self adjusting with parking brake use. I forgot...I need to stop typing...sorry.

 

Mine aren't adjustable from the e-brake. They have their own drum e-brake in the hat of the disc.

I tried to keep the idiot light switch (aka pressure differential switch)...but that wasn't easy being that I didn't want/need any of the other functions in the combo valve. I haven't been able to find a separate pressure differential switch. I have thought about using a fluid level switch like on other vehicles...but right now getting the e-brake working is more of a priority.

 

I haven't been able to find a separate pressure differential switch.

I just showed you one. Before combination valves, all the valves were separate, used according to need. The valve shown (pressure differential) is the type (FORD) used before 1971.

 

I see. Thanks. Any idea where I could get one of those new?

 

-Classic Mustang® Parts of Oklahoma-

1964-70 BRAKE DISTRIBUTION BLOCK -REBUILT - POWER BRAKES

ALL MODELS. THIS IS A BRAKE PRESSURE DIFFERENTIAL VALVE. THIS IS RECOMMENDED FOR 1964 TO 66 DISC BRAKE CARS AND 1967-70 THAT ALREADY HAVE ONE BUT IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO REPLACE IT. THIS IS A LATE MODEL REBUILT UNIT THAT MAY NOT BE A DIRECT REPLACEMENT AND MAY REQUIRE BENDING BRAKE LINES. View Picture 18-57905-5

Replaces: C7ZZ-2B257-AR Add one $112.95

This is a rebuild (I have not found a source of new) and is FORD specific (but can be used on any system).

 

Ok so I guess I can chime in now that it seems to have cooled off a little in here. This is good info though. So a modern combo valve should do the trick for all hydro valves in the system? Would one like this one work?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33562&item=8030216710


Or...is something like this just junk? I could easily wire the warning/dummy/idiot/indicator light to it also. And (please, one last question) would something like this suffice with a non-power system provided I had the correct MC?

 

Ok so I guess I can chime in now that it seems to have cooled off a little in here.

If I made this thread to sound as an argument, I am very sorry. I just attempted to clarify a few things as there is no room for mistake/misconception regarding brake/steering systems (not implying that I know it all but there are too many misconceptions out there and someone may get hurt).

This is good info though. So a modern combo valve should do the trick for all hydro valves in the system? Would one like this one work?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33562&item=8030216710

Yes, it will work in a conversion, but two things to consider;

• It is shown with free standing residual valves. This kit (as shown) would only be used for a low mount M/C. The text states;
  
  
  

  You are bidding on a new MBM Brakes 10 lb residual pressure valve (red for drum brakes) and a new MBM Brakes 2 lb residual pressure valve (blue for disc brakes); as well as a new combination valve for disc / drum brake setups. Part # PCS PV2.
  
  A disc brake combination valve (should read DISC/DRUM style comb. valve) is a necessity when doing a drum to disc conversion.
  
  The combination valve will provide all the valving necessary in the system. Combination valves perform four functions...(1) Proportioning, (2) Metering, (3) Residual Pressure, and (4) System Failure Warning.

  Why would the seller offer a separate 10lb. residual valve if the valve is actually a part of the comb. valve?
  
  
• The proportioning section of the valve is set to one (or more) vehicles. It may or may not give you the correct weight bias compensation you need for a particula build. One does not fit all as claimed on most GM parts sourced kits.

Or...is something like this just junk? I could easily wire the warning/dummy/idiot/indicator light to it also.

It is not junk, but valving that may not be correct for all applications. This is why I am trying to get across what most of these Kit Companies are doing. Buyer Beware!

And (please, one last question) would something like this suffice with a non-power system provided I had the correct MC?

Yes. Valving remains basically the same whether you use manual or power assist (vacuum or hydraulic).

The most desirable way to do the valving is to offer the disc/drum combination valve as a metering-pressure differential-residual (for rear drum brakes)-and have the proportioning valve section made adjustable (IMO).

 

I don't get why the extra valves are included either. They aren't needed unless the master is under the floor.

FWIW that valve looks like the one that was in my 87 S10 (rear port on right in all these pictures)

This is the porportioning valve. As you can see I had to cut it apart. I was going to remove the spring and use an external adjustable valve but it wasn't to be.

This is a valve out of a 91 S10 (the pressure differential shuttle is still inside it)

As you can see the proportioning valve spring is much easier to get to in this type. If you wanted to be sure it was matched to your car (and not the s10 it was supposed to go in) you could shim or replace the spring.