Personally, I'm fairly excited by some of the technology, innovation, and evolution involved with many of the newer engines.

The focus has been on horsepower / torque in recent years ... while retaining driveability and reasonable mileage. (Well ... the term "reasonable" seems dependant on the price of gas at the pump.)

"Engine management" has advanced light years from the days of breaker-point ignition and carburators. Even my 13-year-old 98 Grand Prix GTP supercharged 3.8 V6 makes more HP/TQ than a early-80's 302 Mustang, but it's a bit of a pooch in comparison to some of the recent numbers.

Yep ... some of this "new stuff" really dangles! :thumbup:

 

New V 8 engines comparisions

I have a good friend who works in the Failure Analysis field and he has an accomplished reputation in that field. He does admit that the new tech materials used in the frames and bodies are tough the high tech plastics in use in some engine concepts doesn't impress him. He has no experience in that area but is only expressing a gut instinct. He has seen the new US high tech engine blocks torn down for an analysis after some grueling events and says the wear factors are almost not present but his first reaction is what is the heat, stress and high RPM's doing to the material mass? I'd like to see what the new valve trains look like after 100,000 miles of normal driving. The only way we may know is if we get suckered into being a buyer who turns out to be a test person. Then we better hope the manufacturer will back what they build.

 

I think it's safe to say that today's stuff is not being "overbuilt," the way 60's Detroit iron was. I seriously doubt a modern V-8 could be rebuilt over and over again the way classic engines can. Even today's factory hot rods show signs of the "10 years and out" mentality.

My 5.7L Hemi in my truck has great performance, but it makes me wince a little when I pop the hood and look at the big black plastic cover over the engine.

 

Personally, I'm fairly excited by some of the technology, innovation, and evolution involved with many of the newer engines.

The focus has been on horsepower / torque in recent years ... while retaining driveability and reasonable mileage. (Well ... the term "reasonable" seems dependant on the price of gas at the pump.)

"Engine management" has advanced light years from the days of breaker-point ignition and carburators. Even my 13-year-old 98 Grand Prix GTP supercharged 3.8 V6 makes more HP/TQ than a early-80's 302 Mustang, but it's a bit of a pooch in comparison to some of the recent numbers.

Yep ... some of this "new stuff" really dangles! :thumbup:

I have a friend/customer who owns a '99 Buick Park Avenue Ultra, with a 3.8L supercharged engine. Is that the same engine in your Gran Prix? This car has 195,000 miles on it, and I've driven it a few times, and it is still pretty quick, for a big heavy luxury car!

 

Again, durabilty HAS improved ... IMO.

Lots and lots of "late-model" engines around with 300,000 KM (180,000 mi) on them.

The old iron was usually on it's last legs at around 1/2 of that. Yes, many blocks had thickwall castings and could be overbored repeatedly ... maybe because they needed to be?

 

I have a friend/customer who owns a '99 Buick Park Avenue Ultra, with a 3.8L supercharged engine. Is that the same engine in your Gran Prix? This car has 195,000 miles on it, and I've driven it a few times, and it is still pretty quick, for a big heavy luxury car!

Yup, I'm quite sure that it is a 3.8 "Series 2" supercharged, same as mine. (Pontiacs just look better.) imp:

Mine has 225,000 KM on the clock ... and until GM had a recent recall on possible oil leaks ... had never even had a valve cover off yet. One of the best mills that GM ever put out, IMO. :thumbup:

Fill 'er up and change oil every 5,000 K (3000 mi)

 

The new Ford engines are interesting. There are the standard run of the mill V8's and the "specials". With nothing more then regular maintenance, they will often outlast the body. A Texas pick up truck with the 4.6 or 5.4 2 or 3 valve version will often see 2-300,000 miles and be running just fine. The spark plug change interval is 100,000 miles and often when pulled, look like they could go another 100K. BUT - if you decide to do some performance mods, you do have to know which one you have, even a standard version - something the VIN will tell you. As far as raising the hood and looking at that engine - my wife's '03 Escape with a V6 is totally covered with a plastic cover over a plastic intake, both of which need to be removed to change the plugs. My V10 truck - much of that engine hides in the recessed firewall and also partly encased in plastic. And that plug change - figure a day the first time you do it at ~100K miles along with about $150 at net price just for parts. Reliable yes, fun for mechanics and DIY'ers no! But think positively, it gives you more time to play with your other toys :thumbup:

Dave W

 

I think it's safe to say that today's stuff is not being "overbuilt," the way 60's Detroit iron was. I seriously doubt a modern V-8 could be rebuilt over and over again the way classic engines can. Even today's factory hot rods show signs of the "10 years and out" mentality.

My 5.7L Hemi in my truck has great performance, but it makes me wince a little when I pop the hood and look at the big black plastic cover over the engine.

GM engines made after 1996 give a new meaning to "built in obsolescence" and is the main reason GM "crate engines" are becoming popular. I cannot find a production auto machine shop within 100 miles that is still in business with a caustic soda hot vat. That is because regular production engines are not being rebuilt anymore. Only auto machine shops that deal in racing engines are still doing business.

Try to find an independent auto repair shop that has a so-called "ASE" tecnician that can work on a modern car? They cannot even change the oil without stripping the drain plug threads and I am not referring to the quick oil change strip joints. I predict in five years you cannot find a regular production auto machine shop and in ten years, all auto repair shops will be out of business. Modern American cars are designed for the "fast buck" with "throw away" engines in order to compete with precision made foreign cars. .

 

I cannot find a production auto machine shop within 100 miles that is still in business with a caustic soda hot vat. That is because regular production engines are not being rebuilt anymore.

Caustic soda (aka "lye" or sodium hydroxide) hot tanks are expensive to maintain because the EPA considers the used solution to be hazardous waste. The waste must be disposed of properly at a high cost to the operator- a cost that must be reflected back to the customer- NOT "because regular production engines are not being rebuilt anymore".

 

What is the solution

If a person is lucky enough to find a regular production auto engine machine shop that still uses a hot tank (vat) , what kind of cleaning solution is being used if it is not caustic soda?

I have a pair of greasy heads that I would like to have cleaned in a vat but I cannot find a machine shop that is still in business. I want to inspect the heads before I take them to the racing engine builder I have used since 1970. He still has a vat.

I have contacted Metal Rehab ( www.metalrehab.com ) but they have a $50 minimum ($800 for a car body) for cleaning anything and the local Pro Strip I have sometimes used in the past was closed five years ago by the EPA.

 

If a person is lucky enough to find a regular production auto engine machine shop that still has a hot tank (vat) , what kind of cleaning solution is being used if it is not caustic soda?

I have a pair of greasy heads that I would like to have cleaned in a vat but I cannot find a machine shop that is still in business.

If there are no shops in your region it's a moot point, but there are many solutions being used in "hot tanks" that aren't caustic. If it is safe for aluminum it's good bet it isn't lye-based. And there are still shops that use caustic tank chemicals- it's just gotten expensive. Some places use a jet cleaning system, others will use an oven to bake the grease off.

A good job can be done at home by using strong alkaline cleaners like Black Maxx sold at NAPA. This **** is vicious if it gets on skin it will immediately sting and will blind you if it splashes in your eyes so protective gear has to be used. It can be used to soak the parts in or sprayed on w/a spray bottle.

Some spray oven cleaners are lye-based and can be used for removing grease at home as well.

 

Metal Prep

There are two dudes I know who are operating an regular production auto machine shop and they still have a working hot tank. However, I must to take my heads to that shop when one of the machinists is playing golf cause he will not take walk-ins with parts to be cleaned. They started the machine shop about two years ago after the attached parts store spun off the machine shop part of the business. That machine shop will probably close in a few months due to lack of business. They cannot stay in business very long just turning brake drums and flywheels.

 

Even today's factory hot rods show signs of the "10 years and out" mentality.

I'm curious if you mean this in terms of the bodies being produced, or the engines, or both. I have to say, at least in terms of V8 engines, the Big 3 seem to be doing well. The LS1's have been around since 1997 and, from what I see, still running strong. But because they are aluminum, they are more prone to serious damages that could prevent a rebuild.

Interesting discussion by the way. :thumbup:

 

Whats up folks? I just joined up tonight, and thought I'd ask a basic first question.....

I'm in my early 40's, and I've been into hot rods and muscle cars since the mid 80's when I turned 16. My first job in 1984 while still in high school was at a machine shop that produced high stall torque converters for street rods and race cars, and my boss was an old professional drag racer from the 60's, who raced a mid 60's Shelby mustang with a Ford 427 tunnel port engine. He had poster sized pictures on the wall of him doing burnouts and pulling the tires a couple feet off the ground. I talked with him about muscle cars all the time, and after speaking with him, I became a Ford guy exclusively for the next 10 years, even though most of my friends were Chevy and Mopar fanatics. But then I opened my mind a bit more, I purchased a '66 Chevy short bed, step-side pick-up in '94.

So I've always been mostly knowledgeable about mostly all of the older American V-8's produced from the early 60's through the late 70's, and beyond, but I have not really kept up to speed with all the details of all the new generations of US V-8's that have been produced in the last 10-15 years. I know of their existence, and I know a little about them, but I dont know how they compare with the earlier V-8's as far as strength and toughness, and I dont know whether parts are as easily interchangeable as they might have been in some of the older engines, such as the gen I chevy small block v-8's(but not so much the Ford V-8's of old).

Also, I've heard that the new modular Ford V-8's are complex, and they have changed a little here and there over the last 14 years or so, meaning that parts might not interchange from one year to the next. Also, the Ford engines seem to have routinely added more and more valves to the design as well.

Whats also confusing, is that Chevy is now on their gen IV v-8, and maybe even just about to start producing the Gen V, after only introducing the gen II V-8 about 16 years ago! Why are they changing generations so frequently? The gen I lasted 45 years after all! Are there problems with these replaced generations of engines, such as the gen II, gen III, etc.?

I dont know as much about the new Hemi, aside from the fact that it has gotten larger over the last 6 years or so, from 5.7 - 6.1 - 6.4L.

I bought a new 2005 Dodge 4x4 1500 pickup with the 4.7 liter V-8, and although it only has about 270 hp, it only gets 10mpg!?! Try and figure that one out? I've seen big blocks with 500+ hp get slightly better gas mileage! :drunk:

So how good are these new engines, and what are the advantages over the older engines?

Any unbiased ideas about which company has produced the best of the new breeds?

The new engines are quite fantastic. Detroit finally realized that alloy blocks can't simply be copies of cast iron. What works for stiffer and brittle iron does not provide sufficient strength for aluminum. So the new engines look more and more like variations on the design themes of WW II aircraft engines, in particular the Allison 1710 with its main bearing caps integrated into a cage that also forms part of the outer crankcase. For an alloy block this adds a lot of strength and rigidity by load sharing across many more fasteners and more interface surface.

These engine's however are quite point designed when it comes to displacement and combustion factors. So the OEMs are still hunting for the best solutions that meet maintainability, life cycle, performance, emissions and mileage goals. The GM Gen IV is mostly a larger bore Gen III, but unlike the Gen I and II SBC making a larger bore is no longer as simple as changing the size of the cylinder casting cores. Same with valves, ports, and combustion chamber shape all this stuff is in play as emissions and mileage standards change and the engine's configuration is modified to meet these requirements. The Ford Modular is a case in point, it's taken Ford 20 years and they probably still haven't arrived at the final design if that will ever happen. In general this engine been through 2 valve heads, 3 valve heads, 4 valve heads as well as more port designs for each valve configuration than you can count. Not to mention redoing the crankcase for what seems like mundane things like modifying the way the case vents.

Chrysler is doing the same sort of stuff to the "Hemi", they just, I think wisely, don't rename the engine for every modification it requires to stay current.

The days of making essentially the same motor for 40-50 years are done. We may never see those days again. I saw a population forecast the other day of 20 billion people by the end of the century, The manufacturers are trying to keep a viable product against the constraints such population growth are going to demand. They've been messing around with pollution reductions on the order of a couple percent a year for 50 years, I rather expect that will have to soon start looking like 50% improvements per year as if there's anything we're running out of is space for the garbage including that which we throw into the air. So the impact on auto design will be huge going forward.

Bogie

 

I am so out of the loop it isn't funny! I have no idea what so ever about ANY V8 made in the last decade, not a single clue.

Brian

 

This new stuff that's being built today is light years ahead of any of the old iron. Cripes i'm running an inline four that gets 30mpg average and a ball park of 360 crank horsepower out of just 121 cubic inches. I cant think of any of the old stuff coming anywhere near those outputs per cubic inch. Though it is getting much more complicated to swap these engines because of the complexity. Well worth the effort though

That being said we need to remember where the hobby has evolved from. I will never loose my passion or respect to the old iron. The flathead powered bellytanker will still produce twice as many camera flashes and create more smiles than a twin turbo modern corvette that is capable of twice the speed. The old stuff is obsolete for a reason, because well, we are progressing. But the sights and sounds that are created by them are epic and are as American as apple pie.

Even if the gas hits 10$ a gallon I hope hotrodders will still roll the old iron, If Nothing more than for the rattle and roar they make.

 

I think it's safe to say that today's stuff is not being "overbuilt," the way 60's Detroit iron was. I seriously doubt a modern V-8 could be rebuilt over and over again the way classic engines can. Even today's factory hot rods show signs of the "10 years and out" mentality.

My 5.7L Hemi in my truck has great performance, but it makes me wince a little when I pop the hood and look at the big black plastic cover over the engine.

I really love my 5.7 Hemi truck, and I'm building a hot rod now with a 392 Hemi but my real love is for the old chevy stuff. 409's a 427's are really great old engines. I'm not a Ford guy at all but through the years I have had the opportunity to drive several of the 4.6 overhead cam engines . They hold up well and perform well too. I have a friend who owns a Taxi service and he buys every old Crown Vic he can find and say's the engines are bullet proof.

 

I am so out of the loop it isn't funny! I have no idea what so ever about ANY V8 made in the last decade, not a single clue.

Brian

Where you been man?

 

I like the modern engines. My engine of choice is the 4.6 DOHC 32 valve Ford modular. All aluminum (light weight), all covers have rubber O ring (no oll leaks) accessories bolt directly on the block (no brackets) fuel injected (better fuel economy and lot of possibilities for tuning and power adders), distributor less ignition w/ coil packs or coil on plug (no distributor to wear more precise spark control), overhead cam (high RPM potential), 4 valves per cylinder (better breathing with less valve lift = less stress on valve train). The aluminum does tend to move so the blocks are deep skirted w/ 4 bolt mains w/ cross jack bolts and sleeves to lock the caps into the skirts. When torquing the bottom end (not including the rods), there are 40 bolts to be torqued in three intervals - took about an hour.

The big advantage w/ the modern fuel injected engines is the fuel is metered so precisely, there is no excess fuel to was the oil from the cylinder walls. The few engines I've had apart w/ over 100k, there is no appreciable ridge on the cylinder.

 

I'm curious if you mean this in terms of the bodies being produced, or the engines, or both.

What I should have said was, yesteryear's engines were overbuilt, because they didn't have rapid prototyping and computers to do analysis before they built them. They utilized a large safety margin, because both iron and gas were cheap. And Six Sigma hadn't even been heard of then. Engine weighs 75lbs more than it absolutely needs to? Big deal. Hot rodders would take later advantage of the extra meat.

Engineers ( :thumbup: ) today, under the constant oppression of the bean counters, manage to remove every unnecessary, unprofitable molecule of material they can from cars. They attempt to build them as closely as they can for the intended purpose, with nothing wasted. This is not to say they can't, or don't make high performance engines. They just come in a factory hot rod. Cool, but not as cool as a total sleeper station wagon from the 70's blowing your doors off at a stop light. (imho)

 

New engines

I gotta say that the new engines scare the whee outta me! I feel like I must have felt when I was about 5 years old, watching my dad work on his 6-cyl Chev. "What is this thing? What does it do, Daddy?"

My problem is that there is just SO much stuff that I can't even identify and it is all computerized and .....

I can fix a sbc by the side of the road "in the dark" if the points ignition quits, but when I can't even figure out what "this thing" is, never mind whether or not it is "important" and can't diagnose a problem if one arises.....

Just looking at the wiring harness alone is enough to make me go back to a points ignition, carb'd sbc (or retreat to my room, sucking my thumb and whimpering )

Yes I know - I can learn - but I am an absolute coward with a "learning block" - I am just overwhelmed, I guess - by the sheer magnitude of what I realize that I don't know.....

What bugs me is that my son just dives right in and checks the framistat and the gijily plug, has a look at the foo-foo inducer and the interdimensional trans-spatial modulator and viola!

 

I simply don't know how they can justify using connecting rods made from iron powder!

How much can you trust them?

That said, all around the world the engines are getting better... and have been for about 25 years. Robots that weigh and precisely match pistons and rods help with balancing at near-zero cost. Casting techniques get better all the time, but so does CNC machining to make up the difference.

I don't count an engine as worthwhile unless it will do 250,000 miles between rebuilds with serious service along the way. Even a bit of abuse. Engines today will generally do this.

The spanner in the works is the wiring. All the wiring that's required, and the transducers, the responders, the sensors and junk that humans simply don't understand. I have an engine with a computer that tells it what to do, then I put that engine onto LPG so the original computer has to talk to an LPG system computer... somewhere along the way the wiring is flawed and I no longer have the option to run on petrol.

While this is less likely in an original installation, those wires used are pretty thin and their insulation can get pretty hard if they live in hot spots.

My nephew reckons I should find a carburettor and a points distributor to put on the engine... I think it might be a good option.

 

I like the modern engines. My engine of choice is the 4.6 DOHC 32 valve Ford modular. All aluminum (light weight), all covers have rubber O ring (no oll leaks) accessories bolt directly on the block (no brackets) fuel injected (better fuel economy and lot of possibilities for tuning and power adders), distributor less ignition w/ coil packs or coil on plug (no distributor to wear more precise spark control), overhead cam (high RPM potential), 4 valves per cylinder (better breathing with less valve lift = less stress on valve train). The aluminum does tend to move so the blocks are deep skirted w/ 4 bolt mains w/ cross jack bolts and sleeves to lock the caps into the skirts. When torquing the bottom end (not including the rods), there are 40 bolts to be torqued in three intervals - took about an hour.

The big advantage w/ the modern fuel injected engines is the fuel is metered so precisely, there is no excess fuel to was the oil from the cylinder walls. The few engines I've had apart w/ over 100k, there is no appreciable ridge on the cylinder.

^^I know this'll come off as a dumb question, but where the heck are the spark plugs and spark plug wires on that engine in your above picture?^^

I was looking at my Dodge 4.7 L V-8 in my 1500 truck(2005) the other day, and I couldnt find the spark plugs or wires on it either!

I've never had a problem finding or changing spark plugs on ANY engine before, although I've heard horror stories about Japanese cars that require you to literally disconnect the engine and raise it out of the car to get to all the spark plugs. I believe the old MR2 was one of these cars.

 

Professional auto mechanics

I gotta say that the new engines scare the whee outta me! I feel like I must have felt when I was about 5 years old, watching my dad work on his 6-cyl Chev. "What is this thing? What does it do, Daddy?"

My problem is that there is just SO much stuff that I can't even identify and it is all computerized and .....

I can fix a sbc by the side of the road "in the dark" if the points ignition quits, but when I can't even figure out what "this thing" is, never mind whether or not it is "important" and can't diagnose a problem if one arises.....

Just looking at the wiring harness alone is enough to make me go back to a points ignition, carb'd sbc (or retreat to my room, sucking my thumb and whimpering )

Yes I know - I can learn - but I am an absolute coward with a "learning block" - I am just overwhelmed, I guess - by the sheer magnitude of what I realize that I don't know.....

What bugs me is that my son just dives right in and checks the framistat and the gijily plug, has a look at the foo-foo inducer and the interdimensional trans-spatial modulator and viola!

Don't feel bad about not knowing about modern engines and systems. Most professional auto mechanics in independent auto repair shops don't understand the new computerized engines either. They are just "parts replacers", meaning, independent auto repair techinicans will replace parts on your car until the problem is fixed...at your expense. Most technicians must furnish their own tools and I know for sure they will NOT fork over $400 - $600 for a Tech 1 Scan tool just so the technician can bleed ABS 4WAL brakes once or twice every five years? No..the technician and a helper will foot bleed the brakes for four or five hours just as if they were standard brakes and hope for the best.

Some of the techs at NEW car dealerships know how to fix modern cars but even those guys don't have a Tech 1 Scan Tool. New car dealerships will refuse to work on a car if it is out of warranty because the cost of the repairs are usually more than the car is worth. The dealership service department know most car owners will tell them to "keep it" when he gets the bill. I recently gave a 1999 Ford Crown Victoria to "Cans for Kids" because it had a cracked aluminum head. The parts alone would cost more than the car was worth.

 

^^I know this'll come off as a dumb question, but where the heck are the spark plugs and spark plug wires on that engine in your above picture?^^

I was looking at my Dodge 4.7 L V-8 in my 1500 truck(2005) the other day, and I couldnt find the spark plugs or wires on it either!

I've never had a problem finding or changing spark plugs on ANY engine before, although I've heard horror stories about Japanese cars that require you to literally disconnect the engine and raise it out of the car to get to all the spark plugs. I believe the old MR2 was one of these cars.

Ha, My neighbor is the town marshal with a newer charger police edition. It needed new plugs and it cost outrageous because they had to remove the intake off the hemi to change them. That's crazy!