Yep, there is such a thing. and it's a PITA to spray without streaks and or bloches, and get it wet enough for a good shine all at the same time.
There is really no need for "protection" for the metalics as "it's in there".
The main reason for BC/CC on metalic colors is you can get a nice even coat and not worry about shine, then you clear it, to achieve the shine.

 

Yes, all the single stages include metallic colors in them and have since the fifties that I’m aware of.

There’s a big misconception about metallic finishes in which it is believed the metallic particles float on top of the surface when painted. That is wrong. When the technician agitates the paint all pigments and metallics become distributed and suspended evenly throughout the mixture. That distribution remains as the technician mixes his formula and applies it to the surface that’s being painted. Therefore, the same amount of metallics visible on the surface is evenly distributed and suspended beneath the surface also. The same is true with basecoat paints.

Blending these topcoats required the same techniques used today except without the use of a clearcoat. New technicians think it was difficult to blend metallics without the use of a clear topcoat when in actuality it was the solid colors that presented the problem. Metallics were easier to camouflage your blend because of the metallics.

BC/CC was developed because it gave the finish a better depth and helped the metallics stand out.

 

how would you wet sand/buff it afterwards. Wouldn't that damage metallic and make it look uneven, etc.

 

Sanding and buffing doesn't damage the metallics at all. Been doing it for years. It's a myth based on too much thinking and no experience working with the product. Those of us who have worked with it know better.

 

You just need to practice
The lighter metalic colours are the hardest to spray without tiger stripes.Agree that a beginner would be better of using BC for metalics. (easier to control and easier to fix your mistakes in the base coat & then apply your finish (clear) The c;ear can be sanded to remove runs etc then buffed to a shine :mwink:
The metalics don't lay on top of the paint they're suspended in the paint. Yes you have to put the paint on wet to get a good finish/shine.
The old guys would say it takes a Real Painter to paint with Enamels . :thumbup:
Personaly I like the look of enamel on an old car (BC just looks wrong)
imp:

Yep, there is such a thing. and it's a PITA to spray without streaks and or bloches, and get it wet enough for a good shine all at the same time.
There is really no need for "protection" for the metalics as "it's in there".
The main reason for BC/CC on metalic colors is you can get a nice even coat and not worry about shine, then you clear it, to achieve the shine.

 

Yes, applying a bc/cc on an older car looks wrong because it doesn’t reflect the period finish used back then.

When bc/cc first came out us old timers had a hard time understanding the difference because the basecoat required more product application to cover than the single stage. That’s because the basecoat pigment was more translucent than the single stage so it required more coats cover. That translucency also gave the metallics a different appearance.

When painting a single stage topcoat next to a bc/cc the bc/cc will appear to have more metallics when they actually have the same amount. The reason is that when you’re looking at the single stage topcoat you can only see what is on or close to the surface of the finish. Conversely, with basecoat you can see further, into the finish therefore you observe more metallics. Afterwhich, when the clear is applied it has a prism effect and refracts the metallics which in turn gives them a 3D appearance.

 

I used to spray single stage metallic a lot when I worked for a trucking company, it is a bear to paint...
Of course I was using a pressure pot with a 2.0 tip spraying on a ladder in a moon suit with hoses draped off me.

Tiger striping is very easy to do, but if it's production you are seeking, it does cut out a step in the painting process.
Golds and silvers are usually the worse in BC/CC for tiger striping, but I had the most problems with the green metallic in single stage for some reason.

 

If you were spraying a 2.0 fluid tip, yeah I would say tiger stripping would be expected.

 

If you were spraying a 2.0 fluid tip, yeah I would say tiger stripping would be expected.

so what are you saying? bigger or smaller tip?

 

Yes, all the single stages include metallic colors in them and have since the fifties that I’m aware of.

There’s a big misconception about metallic finishes in which it is believed the metallic particles float on top of the surface when painted. That is wrong. When the technician agitates the paint all pigments and metallics become distributed and suspended evenly throughout the mixture. That distribution remains as the technician mixes his formula and applies it to the surface that’s being painted. Therefore, the same amount of metallics visible on the surface is evenly distributed and suspended beneath the surface also. The same is true with basecoat paints.

.

Then how do you explain how you get a lighter color when you spray with more air pressure? I can spray too panels with the same gun but simply change the air pressure on one and you would think I dumped the paint out and poured in another color!

They may not "float" on top, but they are plenty exposed on top and WILL be damaged if buffed.

The biggest reasons the bc/cc and the SS will look different is they are two different colors!! Two completely different formulas, two different colors. It has little to do with being able to "see more metallic".

If your theory were correct simply adding clear on top of the SS would produce the same color, and it won't.

Brian

 

so what are you saying? bigger or smaller tip?

65ELCMO, the tip you’re using is too large for the metallic colors. Most will recommend a 1.3, 1.4, or at best 1.5 fluid tip.

Then how do you explain how you get a lighter color when you spray with more air pressure? I can spray too panels with the same gun but simply change the air pressure on one and you would think I dumped the paint out and poured in another color!

They may not "float" on top, but they are plenty exposed on top and WILL be damaged if buffed.

The biggest reasons the bc/cc and the SS will look different is they are two different colors!! Two completely different formulas, two different colors. It has little to do with being able to "see more metallic".

If your theory were correct simply adding clear on top of the SS would produce the same color, and it won't.

Brian

It’s a known phenomenon that when you increase the air pressure when spraying metallic colors it will lighten the color.

I’ve wet sanded and buffed plenty of single stage metallic finishes and never experienced any damage to the metallics what so ever.

Yes, they are two different colors. I was trying to illustrate the differences of why the metallics appear different and it has all to do with seeing more metallics in the finish.

I never claimed that adding clear would produce the same color in the finish. You’re making a false inference on what I’ve posted.

 

Then how do you explain how you get a lighter color when you spray with more air pressure? I can spray too panels with the same gun but simply change the air pressure on one and you would think I dumped the paint out and poured in another color!

They may not "float" on top, but they are plenty exposed on top and WILL be damaged if buffed.

The biggest reasons the bc/cc and the SS will look different is they are two different colors!! Two completely different formulas, two different colors. It has little to do with being able to "see more metallic".

If your theory were correct simply adding clear on top of the SS would produce the same color, and it won't.

Brian

I'll have to agree with what you've said. At least that's the way I was taught by my teacher during college.

 

It’s a known phenomenon that when you increase the air pressure when spraying metallic colors it will lighten the color.

How does this happen?

Brian

 

Ok, I’m beginning to see where the confusion is coming from. My apologies for not clarifying.

What I’m referring to is the practice of painters who jack up their air pressure trying to spread their metallics properly during application. When too much air pressure is used, it produces a dry effect to the basecoat and even single coat applications. This dry effect produces a lighter tone in the finish. In addition, the metallics won’t lay down as they should when applied properly.

Doe’s this explain it better?

 

Ok, I’m beginning to see where the confusion is coming from. My apologies for not clarifying.

What I’m referring to is the practice of painters who jack up their air pressure trying to spread their metallics properly during application. When too much air pressure is used, it produces a dry effect to the basecoat and even single coat applications. This dry effect produces a lighter tone in the finish. In addition, the metallics won’t lay down as they should when applied properly.

Doe’s this explain it better?

Yes, but it doesn't take "jacking up" the pressure. Simple spray technique can produce the same thing and barely any pressure change can do it as well.

With the new waterborne base, two or three pounds will change the color so friggin much it would blow you away!

I am not taking about the metallics not laying down as they "should", they are gathered at the top more, THAT is why the color is lighter.

The higher the pressure the lighter the color because more metallic stays at the top, both bc and SS that is just what happens, it is common understanding in auto painting.

And if you spray too wet the opposite happens, the metallics sink in the film. So no, they are not distributed evenly throughout the film.

And if you have "buffed" a single stage metallic you didn't CUT it, that is for sure. If you CUT a SS metallic and buff it back to a shine it WILL be ruined, it simply can't be done. If you have pulled off some buffing without ruining it, you are awesome. But it should be made real clear to others who may want to give it a try that it is a huge no-no usually resulting in disasterious results.

Again, you can "shoe shine" a SS metallic, but you aren't going to cut it much, or it will cut thru the layers of metallic and look like crap.

Brian

 

When blending a single stage you have to use a high grade thinner. No fast dry or medium dry. It needs to go on wet, even the reduced mixture when blending, so as to reduce the cut when buffing. You only get one shot at it. Down the road if it’s buffed again and whoever does, it isn’t aware of the blend a break in the blend will occur.

Brian, I’ve done plenty of blends and perfected my method. It was my little niche to a lot of dealer work with their high liners. And, you’re correct; many of our readers here would not be able to blend as well as I can with single stage. Back when we only had single stage, many painters couldn’t.

I think we’re going to continue to disagree about buffing metallic single stage. That’s ok I can live with it.

Now you bring up waterborne paints. That’s a whole other thread.

Yes, any deviation, no mater how slight, when spraying waterborne is going to affect the result. It’s a difficult paint to spray to begin with. Even before you start your at a disadvantage because the manufacturer uses an electrostatic charge to polarize the coating and assist with the metallic spread and lay down. Moreover, they employ variable shading in the primer; limit the coating so that some of the primer shows through the topcoat, and clearcoat.

Again, waterborne coating is a whole other thread topic.

 

When blending a single stage you have to use a high grade thinner. No fast dry or medium dry. It needs to go on wet, even the reduced mixture when blending, so as to reduce the cut when buffing. You only get one shot at it. Down the road if it’s buffed again and whoever does, it isn’t aware of the blend a break in the blend will occur.

Brian, I’ve done plenty of blends and perfected my method. It was my little niche to a lot of dealer work with their high liners. And, you’re correct; many of our readers here would not be able to blend as well as I can with single stage. Back when we only had single stage, many painters couldn’t.

I think we’re going to continue to disagree about buffing metallic single stage. That’s ok I can live with it.

Now you bring up waterborne paints. That’s a whole other thread.

Yes, any deviation, no mater how slight, when spraying waterborne is going to affect the result. It’s a difficult paint to spray to begin with. Even before you start your at a disadvantage because the manufacturer uses an electrostatic charge to polarize the coating and assist with the metallic spread and lay down. Moreover, they employ variable shading in the primer; limit the coating so that some of the primer shows through the topcoat, and clearcoat.

Again, waterborne coating is a whole other thread topic.

There is no argument over whether an open blend IS going to fail, WHEN is the only thing to discuss.

Again, you have 2 coats of protection, a foot away you have zero coats. What happens in between? Well it goes from 2 coats to 1 to 1/2 to 1/4, to 1/8 to 1/10 to 1/12 to 1/20 to 1/50 to 1/90 and so on to nothing. That 1/90th of a coat is going to be rubbed off with a friggin rag while washing the car!

An open blend "works" until the car leaves, that is about it. And yes I have seen them last a long time, but I have seen them fail more. And I did a lot of home work on it too and prided myself in doing the best damn blend I could do. And I still feel guilty for all those cars I did open blends on, they failed and now I know it.

Brian

 

There is no argument over whether an open blend IS going to fail, WHEN is the only thing to discuss.

Again, you have 2 coats of protection, a foot away you have zero coats. What happens in between? Well it goes from 2 coats to 1 to 1/2 to 1/4, to 1/8 to 1/10 to 1/12 to 1/20 to 1/50 to 1/90 and so on to nothing. That 1/90th of a coat is going to be rubbed off with a friggin rag while washing the car!

An open blend "works" until the car leaves, that is about it. And yes I have seen them last a long time, but I have seen them fail more. And I did a lot of home work on it too and prided myself in doing the best damn blend I could do. And I still feel guilty for all those cars I did open blends on, they failed and now I know it.

Brian

Of course, they failed down the road. That's not our problem; you as well as I did the best we could with what we had to work with. We did what the customer wanted and demanded we do. We never had a choice in those days. Today we do and have moved forward.

 

I have sprayed metallic single stages in the truck industry for years also. Anything from Centari, Sunfire, Imron, Imron 5000 and the latest PPG 3.5 voc also. I have never been able to color sand and buff without changing the color somewhat. Also never seen a 3.5 blend that has been buffed that didnt look completely like *****......maybe some of the 4.6 voc stuff but never a 3.5. always irritated the crap out of me every time i thought i could do it.

 

I have sprayed metallic single stages in the truck industry for years also. Anything from Centari, Sunfire, Imron, Imron 5000 and the latest PPG 3.5 voc also. I have never been able to color sand and buff without changing the color somewhat. Also never seen a 3.5 blend that has been buffed that didnt look completely like *****......maybe some of the 4.6 voc stuff but never a 3.5. always irritated the crap out of me every time i thought i could do it.

Yes, enamel is difficult to blend and requires a higher degree than single stage lacquer.

Again, you must use a high-grade reducer and the process is longer than lacquer because of enamel properties. It cannot be sprayed dry or with any orange peel. You pretty much have to spray matching the texture already there already. Therefore, when it’s time to buff you don’t have to wet sand. Moreover, you don’t use a compound to buff the blend. Instead, you use Miracle Wax to buff.

Trust me, blending enamel correctly to match the texture, already there, isn’t easy. In my area, only my mentor and I were good at it. Many painters tried doing what we could do but failed.

 

Burning in the blend never was the problem just never looked like it hadnt been done once it was buffed. Also could only get a good blend with poly from and dupont or ppg blending clear. Ruducers just never seemed to do a good enough job.

 

To tell you the truth. I was taught to use Dupont 3661S lacquer thinner with the enamels. It hardens and dries the finish faster and doesn't have that false gloss associated with using reducer while retaining a more factory type gloss.

That's probably why no-one else I know could copy our blend technique. I never discussed our secret to our blending procedure prior to this thread.

 

well glad you did. will have to try it.

 

i never would have tried laquer thinner on fresh enamel. wow that is scary to me.