I personally don't believe, but I am tolerant of those who are tolerant. If someone preaches to me I'm not showing any respect for what they believe, if they mention something but don't try to force it on me I let it go.

I'm not going to get into why I believe what I do because I may upset some people, but I will tell you this, if there is a god and he is like everyone says, he won't care what you believe as long as you have done good.

 

I believe strongly in God. As an engineer, it is impossible to believe in anything other than a special creation (evolution can be easily disproved using probability laws and laws of thermodynamics). This grand design HAD to have a designer. NOTHING happens by chance.

I also believe that all people, including the young boy in Asia, will be given a chance to understand and be given a chance to make an informed decision. Some are called to understand now, most aren't. Those called now are called for a purpose to spread the Gospel. The bible teaches that God wants everyone to be 'saved' and I believe that most will, in their appointed time.

The Christian Bible no-where teaches of anyone going to an ever-burning hell, nor does it teach of anyone going to heaven as a final reward. It teaches nothing about keeping Christmas, Easter, Valetine's day, other than DON'T do it! What passes for Christianity today would be quite foreign to Christ.

The arguement that there can't be a God because of all the sorrow and misery He is allowing doesn't hold water. We as free moral agents as a people have thrown Him out of schools, made it illegal to pray to him, legalized adultry and fornication, promote killing of unborn children, curse Him daily with every imaginable epithet, teach our children he doesn't exist, and reject his laws in every part of our lives. Then we blame him for the harvest we are reaping from the above seeds we are sewing.

Wow, did you open a hornets nest!!

 

WEll not to start a big arguement but why can't different religions seem to accept each other. I mean yeah they do to an extent, but it always seems to be. The buddhists (sp?, I'm sorry to any)will be given a chance to believe what we do. Well, in a way aren't most religions the same. They believe in one supreme being just that it takes a different form? That is one thing that has always bothered me. Who cares what religion somebody is, just because you believe what you do and they believe what they do doesn't mean either one is right. Both are a form of believing in a supreme being.

Another thing about religion, just because you go to church every sunday, and in your mind do everything the way that "god" wanted, doesn't mean you are actually a good person. I have seen a bunch of people who will use god as a tool to get angry with people when they themselves are not very good people. <---- biggest ones to use such tactics is many many many governments. (eg, jihads<-- sorry but blowing yourself and others up in the name of religion don't make you a good person,In God We Trust <---- does god approve of the bombs that land on innocent children?, how bout the old societies that would kill people in the name of RELIGION?, there are many many many more)

I now have probably pissed a bunch of people off, unintentionally. If you are one of those people you need to lighten up. Really you do, not everyone thinks the same, and we all have our FREEDOM.

I think I'm going to try to avoid further posts on this thread. I'm gunna get in a fight here, I just know it.

 

Hey Dave, nice post. Right on Willys. I think that ALL religions, (irregardless of any intolerant opinions) serve the SAME GOD or ALLAH or whatever. God wants people to do the RIGHT thing,DO unto others as you would have them do to you. thats what all religions strive to get across. Dave and Willys are absolutely right in that Christianity has strayed far from Christ. Jesus was a far out cat. I mean, how many people do YOU know who would allow themselves to be CRUCIFIED on a freakin' cross so that you might not die.BUt I don't think He'd be to proud of the church nowadays.
but the Bible in revelations talks about the ABOMINATION the Adultress, or False religion, (i canthink of a bunch of "christian" religions that resemble cults.) heck you tell me the United States isn't an abomination before the eyes of God. (Dave, I bet you can't believe I said that )
Sodom and Gomorah were destroyed for being an abomination to God, well they didn't have legally binding same sex marriages and all the other crap the liberals have allowed in over the years. But I or You can't pray at a football game anymore? wth? and you know what was the coolest about Jesus? he hung out with dopers and whores. I wonder if they were greasy?
Oh yeah, Jesus and Muhammad were both HERE on this earth. so was Buddha,I mean really physically here, you can walk the literal paths they walked. They were all scholars of the way. but my advice to you would be to live your life , think about when your older, and your telling your grandkids your life story, if you wouldn't want to tell them about something, then don't do it. and when the time comes, you'll know what to do.
and Oh yeah, if all these folks believe in the devil, then why can't they see Jesus? cos with out God, there is no fallen angel. and don't think that there aren't demons loose in this world. I see 'em. call me crazy.......

way to stir it up AKM.

 

and in answer to your question, I believe because there are too many miraculous things in this world to not have had a Creator. Thank you Lord for hotrods and family and everything else.

whats the scripture, Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.


thats faith brother. all there is to it.

 

I kinda wanna bring a point up here. I forgot this one. Not ment to change people or anything. Just a thinking question. What would be done with a person who claimed to be the son of people's creator in modorn day? What if he claimed he was Jesus who has come again? What if he even looked how people always depicted Jesus?

My best bet is he would be institutionalized. Why? Well because people aren't going to allow something so "impossible" to happen now, so why do they believe it happened so many years ago?

 

Dave, your right, but, Jesus never stated that He was the christ, any man who does, is a false prophet. Jesus never claimed to be anything other than a teacher and a son of God, as He taught we all are.

taKE that DMorris.

[ June 04, 2003: Message edited by: crazy larry ]</p>

 

I believe in God, absolutely; but I don't believe people need to follow a religion to have a relation with God. most religious people to me seem like they are worse people than the nonreligious crowd. the Catholic church has enough wealth to feed every starving person on the planet, shelter them, provide health care for them, wipe out many of the earth's disease and dispair, but they don't. why not? because religion is a horrible thing. I could go on and on providing evidence for this arguement, but if you are honest with yourself you will see you already know all the evidence I could supply.

one point I'd like to make about the bible, the old testiment depicts a cruel and petty god that demands sacrfice, while the new testiment depicts a kind, loving and forgiving god. which to believe? I can find a quote in the bible to support anything form abortion to prolife; a professor I had in college once told me the bible has been quoted more times than all other books combined. he is probably right, and I would guess it is misquoted more often than not. so akm, to comment on your post, I would say a good start is to read the bible; everyone should read it no matter what their belief just so that you know what other people are talking about when the quote it. disregard the old testiment, it is alot of useless "this guy begot this dude who begot this guy". then make up your own mind about God. stoned pup makes a good point- if there is a god that is kind and loving, we're all heaven bound, and it doesn't matter if you believe in god, he believes in you.

now I have to go enjoy this beautiful day (I have lots of time today since I will not be going to church) that could only have been created by God.

- a sinner and proud of it

 

Christ, did say "I am the way."
It is not about a religion!!! It is about a relationshp with Jesus. A personnel relationship. There will be all types and kinds of people in Heaven(streets of Gold) If you simply beleive that Christ was send from the father, walked the earth for 33 years, teaching, preaching, healing and working miracales. This same Christ dieded on the cross and arouse 3 days later. This death was for you and for me. So that we could have eternal life.
Jesus, said" In my fathers house, there are many mansions, If it were not so, i would have told you.I go there now to prepare a place for you. So that where i am , there you may be also."
If you had to cross the Shara desert , bare footed with no water to be saved,people would be dieing out there everyday. But because you simply must beleive,folks turn away for the one the true savior. I love and know this Christ that i can not see or touch. It is a blind faith. That is hard for people to understand or do.People worry,if i accept this Jesus, i`ll Have to change my life!!! But the secret is that if you know him as yours, you want to change!!!! The Bible has now been supported buy other documents( written at same time frame as the Bible), describing the same events , spoken of in the BiBle.
Thanks for having the courage to broch this topic.
God bless
Slider in Wa.
2 penny`s worth

 

thanks for the posts. i'm glad to see that no one is saying that i'm wrong, but just giving your own view like i originally asked.
each of you seem to really stand for what you beleive in and thats great. i wanted to hear your thoughts and you provided them.
this is the most i have heard about god in a while and weather it helps me to understand or not i am glad to have someone to turn to in a situation like this.
stone seems to think just like i do and i am glad that i am not the only one.
any other info on if you think the chuch is a profit organisation?
thanks for the posts.

 

Originally posted by akm:
<strong>any other info on if you think the chuch is a profit organisation?
</strong><hr></blockquote>


I am a trustee at my church and I can tell you that the Baptist church is definitely not a profit organization. There is no one at the top reaping the cash. Offerings should always be put back into the church.

 

I go to a Catholic church and I don't see anyone getting rich off the collection plate.

 

I had a Christian upbringing, but later was taught in school that evolution was the popular and logical belief. So for a while I was of Atheist belief. Now I believe that minor evolutions have occurred, but I will never believe that the complex human body evolved from a blob of protoplasm floating in a tropical swamp. I believe our creator(s)(I think there were helpers) had knowledge, capabilities, and energies that are inconceivable to a human mind. The description that this creator is given in every culture from the day you are born, is"God". God may be called Allah, Buddha, Jehovah, Gitche Gummie, The Great Manitou, Lord God, etc., but every culture have a supreme entity that they worship and defend.

I believe that in the beginning a dialog was used to establish morals and order on the planet.The translations over the centuries, and political influences have grossly grossly altered these laws and commandments, from culture to culture. I believe this creator is real, but I don't believe everything in the bibles. Poor translations by medieval kings and churches may have distorted true meanings and history.

I believe dinosaurs and prehistoric man were here in an era predating present religions.

Why we are here, is a different issue. Are we a long time experiment for our creator? A zoo for a supreme astral culture, invisible to us? Maybe some alien kid's ant farm? Who Knows? Not us, that's for sure.

God bless us all.

 

Originally posted by kitkar:
<strong>I had a Christian upbringing, but later was taught in school that evolution was the popular and logical belief. So for a while I was of Atheist belief. Now I believe that minor evolutions have occurred, but I will never believe that the complex human body evolved from a blob of protoplasm floating in a tropical swamp.
</strong><hr></blockquote>


That’s interesting, what you are talking about is called micro-evolution. It has been proven over and over again. Animals change color or size or something small. However people improperly use micro-evolution to support macro-evolution, species change into other species. There is no evidence of this taking place, ever.

Originally posted by kitkar:
<strong>
I believe dinosaurs and prehistoric man were here in an era predating present religions.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

You might be interested to know that dinosaurs are motioned twice in the Bible. They are described as interacting with man, so they have to have lived at the same time. I will have to look up the passages if you want me to.
Large dragons and lizards appear in the legend of almost all cultures. They are even motioned in one of the earliest English text, Beowulf.

 

Originally posted by barz51:
<strong>

You might be interested to know that dinosaurs are motioned twice in the Bible. They are described as interacting with man, so they have to have lived at the same time. I will have to look up the passages if you want me to.
Large dragons and lizards appear in the legend of almost all cultures. They are even motioned in one of the earliest English text, Beowulf.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You know, this may look like evidence of dinosaurs living during the time of people, but that is not nessicarily true. Imagine if you knew nothing about crocodiles as a child, and your parents got eaten by one with you watching. Your imagination would get away on you and by the time you were 30 the crocodile would be a firebreathing dragon that was 100 feet tall.

It is this simple, if people were around when dinosaurs were we simply wouldn't be around anymore. Here are the reasons

1. people are not able to swim long distances or fly, yet there was TONS of water around back then.

2. although larger meat eating dinosaurs like the T rex would have left people alone because we are boney, a raptor would gladly grab a person who is slow and defensless compared to dinosaurs.

3. There is no evidence of human life that far back

4. if humans were alive that far back, with the intellegence to write about it and all then why weren't computers and things created like 10 000 years earlier than they were?

5. Carbon dating carbon dating carbon dating

 

My beliefs are mmuch the same as Crazylarrys, I do believe in a supreme being, and the same beliefs AS Jesus being a teacher and a child of God. A wise teacher I had in high school once pointed out the similarities of the different religions, rules to live by, morals to teach our children and to get along with others, and the answer to the greatest unanswered question of all and perhaps man's greatest fear, what happens after we die? This teacher probably would have gotten the boot in todays times, this is back in 1971 when I was a senior. All the religions should have our respect. And all races should have the same respect. I once asked my so-called religious step dad, after he used the N-word, what would you do, believing in heaven, if the man that greeted you at the gates was black? Something to think about, Christianity does have it's roots in Africa. Tolerance and leading a decent life are my basic belief. Dan

 

Originally posted by crazy larry:
<strong>Dave, your right, but, Jesus never stated that He was the christ, any man who does, is a false prophet. Jesus never claimed to be anything other than a teacher and a son of God, as He taught we all are.

taKE that DMorris.

[ May 31, 2003: Message edited by: crazy larry ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hey Larry I don't get it? Did I miss something, what was that a picture of I only see a red X. I offered no opinion on this topic so I can't see how it related to that. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

 

Hey Larry I clicked on the little red X in your post and the properties said it is a gif image. Did you do a little flaming text of your own? The best thing to do if you want to show it is to download it like a picture to your photo album at hotrodders and then link to it to show it in a post. If you are having trouble with it send me a PM.

 

stonedchihuahua:

i don't think Bars is trying to say people were living with the dinosaurs 100 million years ago. i think he means the dinosaurs may have lived 10 thousand years ago with us.

being brought up baptist, this is what i was taught. while i am a christian, i no longer attend a baptist church, and i have my doubts on some of the church's interpretations of the old testiment. it is a curious question: did dinosaurs die in the flood? or did they exist before us? carbon dating is an intriguing thing, but it is not 100%.

interesting comment by stoned regarding technology verses the human timeline. this is an interesting topic to me. the way i see it, the 20th century (and maybe the later part of the 19th) was simply the most incredible leap for humankind's knowledge and ability to do just about everything there is to do.

consider our medical capability and life expectancy #'s compared to one or two hundred years ago. we've come a long way since the civil war, but look at life in the 1800's verses the 1600's. not really a huge change there. it was the discovery of antibiotics that started a chain reaction of medical progress. today we are close to curing cancer, and might be living forever before my term is up.

consider industry and technology. compared to now, the early 1800's might as well have been the stone age. the industrial revolution changed things so profoundly. mass production is probably the single most important reason we have automobiles today. then add the discoveries of electricity, radio, television, silicon chips - all in the last 100 years or so. and think of what these discoveries lead to: automobiles, luxery liners, locomotives, aeroplanes, automatic firearms, lasers, nuclear weapons, space ships, cell phones, computers, and a whole lot of stuff we don't even know about yet. think of all the materials we are using to build these things - plastics, composites, high-tech alloys. now, look at what was going on in 1840. not much more than during the renaissance period if you ask me.

i guess my point is that the 20th century should be considered a fluke, a jump in progress so huge that it cannot be considered a normal part of our linear existance. no one could have anticipated what happened during this time, and that's because it probably occurred by accident (or by plan of a higher power). we are lucky time didn't wait another 300 years to give us what we have now. whatever God we believe in, everyone should be very thankful for the quality of life we enjoy every day.

by the way, i believe in God very much. i used to have my doubts, but who doesn't? no one really knows anything for sure, right? what convinced me was the obvious evidence of design in nature. look at fish. they were designed to be harvested for food. they are easy to catch, easy to clean, they taste good, and surprise, they're good for you!

look at plants. they were designed to produce oxygen for animals, and to be harvested for food. look at fruit - how much more blatant does our creator need to be? a bananna is much more than just a seed. do we really believe a bananna evolved into what it is because it knew it would be picked, peeled, palatted, and pooped? not i.

look at humans. males and females were obviously designed to be together - physically and emotionally. take each sex's inadequacies, and the other sex compensates for it. this design is so good that we actually learn to put up with each other!

ok, i'm done. hey, where is horvath? i'd like to hear your thoughs, man. by the way, cool mp3's at your website.

[ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: 98rocket ]</p>

 

hmmm dinosaurs.....
well in Genesis it talks about what was done on what day and ive heard that 10,00,000 years to God are but 1 minute to man. and if it took God 6 days to create the earth, who know EXACTLY HOW long one of HIS days are? yeah there were dinosaurs, they just played out early on in the scheme of things. i mean one the first day, it might have been 50,000,000 earth years, but to God, it was but a days work. I'd like to see His hotrod.
DMorris, hows this?

[ June 04, 2003: Message edited by: crazy larry ]</p>

 

COOL! I like the blue effect.

 

thanks.
wish i could get the flames on my truck to dance like that.

[ June 04, 2003: Message edited by: crazy larry ]</p>

 

Rocket, I do not really believe that the 20th century was fluke. I mean yeah there was the most advances then BUT. If you look throughout many different cultures before the 20th century they were all going through the same sort of phase, kind of a building and slow developments required for the upcoming advances. It was not fluke but yet just a pinnical of all that was going on before it, where all the independant develpments finally had a direction and that direction lead to more advancments. Of course it is partially chance it happened when it did, but eventually the conditions would have to be met for something like the industrial revolution to take place.

About plants creating oxygen, well it may seem like it was designed but if you have taken a little bit of chemistry it is easy to see that when you start getting an excess of one substance a balancing reaction is going to take place, especially when there are so many different chemicals in the environment for it to work with. The question isn't weather or not plants and animals were designed by someone to coexist. The question is more of which one came first, and how did it cause the conditions for the second one to develope so quickly.

Right before I stopped believing, I started to believe that god did not create the animals, plants, landscape, and people. I instead began to believe that god simply created the conditions for evolution to occure (Everyone is happpy then).

I guess to finish this off I'd like to say this. Science and Religion both serve the same purpose, to try and give people an understanding on the unexplainable, and to help people to find answeres to problems. Now this for sure is true, so now you see religion is a science, and science is a religion. They both serve the same purpose and are both a part of one another. The biggest difference is the interpretation of things. (just think about that for a few hours)

 

here's a question: do you believe the advances of the 20th century was inevitable because of centuries of "slow developments", or was it driven by the presence of brilliant thinkers all on this earth at the same time? i know it's really both, but which is more influential?

i'm not a history major, but this is an impressive group of individuals: einstien, edison, marconi, ford, stephen hawking, weiner, the wright bros, graham bell, freud, flemming, marie curie, and perhaps most importantly - tesla. when in history has there been greater mind power on this earth than in the last one hundred years? i realize that there have been great thinkers in the past, but so many at the same time?

if the 20th century was not a fluke, does that mean that huge advances would have occurred anyway, without the requirement of these great minds? was it a coincidance, or did these individuals play critical roles in sparking the advancements of the 20th century? i believe it is because of them that we made the progress we did, not because it was bound to happen sometime.

it's funny, this topic parallels the evolution vs. creation arguement. it's an interesting question to ask yourself: do things just happen because the odds dictate they will eventually, or is it required that something or someone initiate that change? i tend believe the idea that things stay the way they are until someone or something puts forth an effort to change the course of things. just food for thought...

regarding plants, animals, and oxygen - i'll buy what you're saying. i haven't studied chemistry since high school, and i didn't do that well at it then. sounds like you know more than i in this area - maybe this knowlege was gained through experience burning certain "plants" to create certain "desireable" chemical reactions (JK).

i can understand why you don't believe God created the heaven and earth - there is no proof of it. i have a hard time believing it myself sometimes, but you gotta believe in something right? atleast you acknowledge that there is a God. that's something a lot of people won't admit because they are afraid to.

science and religion - i have thought about this for too many hours already. currently, i think science is the more interesting of the two. however, i'm not a big fan of religion, as i feel faith is what's important, not a set of rituals performed every day, week, or month. strong belief in whatever it is you feel is right is all you need. if needed, religion will follow automatically. i think faith involves a personal commitment, not something to be imposed on others. i believe God sent his only Son to die for us, but i'm not going to go to the next hotrod show with a bundle of tracts, trying to get everyone to come to my church. i guess some folks are cut out to be missionaries, and some aren't.

[ June 02, 2003: Message edited by: 98rocket ]</p>

 

Don't rap the old testament. After all, those are the only scriptures that Christ and the Apostles used in their preaching! The former was a physical dispensation so there needed to be physical consequences to human activity. The new testament is a spiritiual dispensation, completely consistant with the former, so there are spiritual consequences. The bible is totally consistant with science (evolution is not science, it is a religion). Nowhere does it say that the world is 6,000 years old. All it says about that time period is that the surface was reformed and mankind and the current animal species was created. Gen 1:1 says God created the universe and it BECAME degenerated and caotic. The earth and universe can be billions of years old and would not conflict with the biblical record.

[ June 02, 2003: Message edited by: willys36@aol.com ]</p>