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Will adding a 1 inch carb spacer affect carb tune?

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115K views 29 replies 12 participants last post by  sqzbox  
#1 ·
Hello guys I have not been driving my truck which is a chevy s10 with a 350 sbc and I just had my carb tuned good but had to put a set of new plugs in cause of being gas and oil fouled from swapping out a couple of different carbs to get a good one running nice. The carb was tuned nice and good and did not have any issues with a constant miss till plugs got bad.

Ok I put a 1 inch 4 hole spacer on to have an extra vacuum hookup source for my pcv and I have noticed that while cruising around at 1900 rpm I seem to have a very slight and very faint miss. I don't have any miss at idle or while driving through town just when I am going at a steady 1900 rpm. Could the carb spacer be causing the carb to be doing this?

I read from somewhere that a carb spacer can affect your A/F mixture ratio but I don't know what affect my spacer would have. Would it actually help with my mixture and make it burn better or not? I have not noticed any difference with it being on there just the miss I was wondering about. Wires and everything else is new and the wires are just 8mm stock replacement type.
Thanks guys
Eric
 
#3 ·
eric32 said:
Hello guys I have not been driving my truck which is a chevy s10 with a 350 sbc and I just had my carb tuned good but had to put a set of new plugs in cause of being gas and oil fouled from swapping out a couple of different carbs to get a good one running nice. The carb was tuned nice and good and did not have any issues with a constant miss till plugs got bad.

Ok I put a 1 inch 4 hole spacer on to have an extra vacuum hookup source for my pcv and I have noticed that while cruising around at 1900 rpm I seem to have a very slight and very faint miss. I don't have any miss at idle or while driving through town just when I am going at a steady 1900 rpm. Could the carb spacer be causing the carb to be doing this?

I read from somewhere that a carb spacer can affect your A/F mixture ratio but I don't know what affect my spacer would have. Would it actually help with my mixture and make it burn better or not? I have not noticed any difference with it being on there just the miss I was wondering about. Wires and everything else is new and the wires are just 8mm stock replacement type.
Thanks guys
Eric
Maybe, manifolds don't do a good job of supplying every cylinder with the same mixture ratio nor amount of WOT flow. To properly set up a carb monitoring the overall fuel ratio in the exhaust stream is an inadequate approach, rather each cylinder needs to be monitored separately and the carbs jetting set such that the leanest cylinder is correct. This will make the rich and correct cylinders more on the rich side but there isn't a lot that can be done about that without going to a carb per cylinder or fuel injection. The miss you're experiencing is most likely a cylinder that's a bit on the lean side.

A carb spacer can cause these kind of problems, they change the flow pattern of mixture exiting the throttles which can effect the cylinder to cylinder fuel distribution. They increase plenum volume which can effect the signal on the booster. They increase the distance from the valve to the venturi which can affect the wave tuning effects at the venturi and booster.

Sometimes these affects are good, so that's what the advertisers use to sell these. But sometimes the affects are bad, which doesn't get mentioned in advertising claims. You have to think of these things as a tuning tool, some set ups like 'em, some don't care one way or the other, and some don't like 'em.

Understanding that you're using them as a vacuum source rather than a tuning tool. If you can find a cylinder running richer or leaner than the others by looking at the spark plugs you could adjust the jetting. Sometimes a multi strike spark box can overcome these light load misfires as well.

Bogie
 
#5 ·
Taken from the Knowledge Base & NHRA

Racing Technology
Tuning with carburetor spacers

by Wayne Scraba


The art and science of tuning headers
Most people think of carburetor spacers as simple horsepower-increasing devices. But that might not be completely true. Certainly, in some cases they can be used to increase engine power levels, but, more important, they can be used as a sophisticated tuning aid. Spacers often provide an increase in top-end power, but at the same time, they can reduce bottom-end power as well as mid-range torque. Typically, power gain comes from increased plenum volume, but that's not the complete picture.

The manifold dilemma
Using a single-plane intake manifold as an example, you must first realize how a single-plane intake manifold functions. Generally, a single-plane intake includes a large, centrally located plenum that has reasonably straight runners leading from the plenum to the port entries in the cylinder head. In this configuration, a large common plenum is under the carburetor. According to the experts, this common plenum allows each runner and cylinder intake port combination to draw from all four carburetor venturii at wide-open throttle. As the partially vaporized air/fuel mixture leaves the base of the carburetor venturii, it forms as four individual mixture streams. When each of the cylinders places a demand on the plenum chamber, these mixture streams, or in some cases portions of the streams, physically bend in the direction of demanding runner/port entry. The mixture "streams" combine to form a single "mixture river," which flows into the runner, eventually feeding the cylinder that is making the demand.

Moroso Performance Products points out that the beauty of a single-plane manifold configuration is that it allows each runner to withdraw a larger volume of air/fuel mixture during the available induction time span. Unfortunately, life isn't always simple — and neither are intake manifolds. As each cylinder withdraws a charge from the plenum, the mixture streams are forced to change direction constantly. Creating more havoc inside the manifold are pressure pulses that travel backward from the cylinder into the manifold runner and eventually into the plenum. And some engine combinations have more of this reverse pressure pulsation than others. These constant directional changes in the plenum along with pressure pulses can create a healthy amount of turbulence inside the plenum.

The cure
Moroso notes that some single-plane intake manifolds are designed with a very short-turn radius coming out the bottom of the carb venturii into the respective entries of the intake-manifold runners. When the carburetor is moved up — most often with a spacer — the velocity of the intake charge is reduced, which in turn allows the previous mixture streams to make the bend around the corner, or short-side radius, easily. In certain applications, a short, 1/2-inch spacer will work, but in other cases, the manifold design dictates a larger spacer.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the addition of a spacer effectively increases the distance between the carburetor and the floor of the plenum. Because of this added distance, the carburetor signal is weakened. And when the signal is weakened, a larger jet or jets in the carburetor will be required. Carburetor spacers designed with four separate holes tend to recapture the velocity of the mixture stream that gets lost when an open carburetor spacer is installed. In simple terms, more exit velocity in the mixture stream creates a stronger carburetor signal than that found with an open spacer. Generally, the jet size will still have to be increased when a four-hole spacer is used, but not as much as with an open spacer.

How much spacer should you use? As a rule of thumb, single-plane intake manifolds seem to respond best with larger spacers — two inches in height and larger. On the other hand, most dual-plane intake manifolds work best with open spacers with a height of between 5/8-inch and 1 1/2 inches.

The market is filled with dozens of spacer styles and configurations. Some spacers are manufactured with insulating materials. These spacers decrease the amount of heat transferred from the intake manifold to the carburetor throttle plate and main body. This reduces the fuel temperature inside the carburetor. Naturally, the result is a denser fuel charge to the manifold, which in turn creates more horsepower.

Spacer materials
Believe it or not, plywood can be an ideal material for constructing carburetor spacers. The thin layers of laminated wood, bonded with resin, form a natural heat sink. For example, a wooden Moroso spacer features top-quality hardwood plywood with a sheet of phenolic resin-impregnated paper bonded to both sides. This creates a durable product that can be used in drag racing, circle track competition, or on the street.

Plywood spacers are easy to modify to suit a given manifold for optimum performance. On the other hand, phenolic spacers are constructed from an advanced material similar to plastic that can reduce heat conductivity 10 times greater than aluminum for a much denser air/fuel charge. Obviously, aluminum spacers are still widely available. The advantage in aluminum is that it can be easily modified for a given application. The disadvantage is that in some cases, an aluminum casting can be porous. Because of this, several manufacturers now offer billet-aluminum spacers CNC-machined from 6061-T6 material.

So how can spacers be used to improve performance? The folks from Moroso provide this theoretical example: You have a car that hooks. It works well, turning the tires slightly during the rollout. Everything is fine until you're up against a track that's greasy after the launch pad or provides conditions that resemble a mine shaft. Typically, the car still hooks reasonably well, but on the 1-2 gear change, it turns the tires heavily (in this case, assume that the engine rpm is brought down to the torque peak on the gear change). The e.t. goes away, and so does the consistency.

Now what? It's a tough situation to "tune" out. None of the normal tricks work because they kill the launch. That's where a spacer can be used. Add a spacer or increase the spacer height and increase the jet size by a couple of numbers. The launch will remain almost the same, but the increased plenum volume helps to shift the torque peak and peak horsepower upward. Because of this, the engine isn't dragged into the meat of its torque band during the gear change and it doesn't turn the tires. The result? A quicker e.t. and a bunch more consistency.

That's but one area where spacer tuning can work; however, there are dozens of other tuning applications, especially those where you have to tune to the engine, the car, the track, or the atmospheric conditions.

One final item to consider when buying or testing carburetor spacers is hood clearance. If the carburetor air horn is moved too close to the hood, then the airflow and fuel metering can become restricted. If the airflow is restricted, you simply won't be able to take advantage of the spacer.

Are spacers for you? That depends on your application, but if you don't tune with them, you could be missing out on some easy e.t.
 
#7 ·
Hello guys man thanks for all the great info. Well my engine is a Chevy 350 with a edelbrock rpm performer and my cam is a crane powermax hydraulic roller with 222/230 @ 50 duration with 510/520 lift with 5 degrees of overlap at 50 duration and a 112 LSA. My carb is a holley 1850s 600 with 69 jets in the front and 75 in the rear and 31 size squirters. The carb runs excellent on my engine but the last set of plugs got fowled from previous carb issues and my stupid pcv sucking up oil but another post as well.

I put a new set of plugs in the other day and they looked nice and clean after a nice highway run and some town driving. Color was grayish color on porcelain part with a few specs of tan showing as well. I don't think the missing is coming from plugs cause they are new and at WOT there is no surging and did not have any previous misses at cruising but now at 1900 2000 rpm I do. Its like a constant miss but nothing major. Hope that helps out.
Eric
 
#9 ·
OP.. I am experiencing a similar miss too,kinda, mine is between 1400-2700rpm and is almost a periodic very short stutter, this occurs at a set/held RPM between 1400-2700.. Acts like a faulty spark plug/lead/boot or a crack in the dizzy cap. Mine does not do this under hard accel or WOT and appears worse or more noticable when cold/cool. I beleive its carb tuning or in my case I have purchased the incorrect series of carb for the amount of duration within the cam..as of now I have a BG Speed Demon 750cfm mech 2nds..

Combo:72 Chevelle(heavy bamf) 355cid SBC,10.5:1, iron heads big valves, Comp cam 253*@.050 with .544" int/ex set @ 0*, Magnum 1.5 roller tips, Vic Jr intake, Demon 750, MSD Pro billet dizz, MSD 6A, MSD SS Coil, MSD 8.5mm wires behind it is a TH350 w/minor upgrades, 3800rpm stall..10bolt rear.

According to BG my intake "signal" is too slow, the "Speed Demon" series does not have the appropriate metering capilbilties to overcome this.. My main issue is a NASTY off idle bog that I have adamently tried to tune out, with others and BG's assistance.....BUT..I do beleive that my miss/periodic stutter is due to this. BG recomended as a band-aid to install a 1" thick 4-hole spacer to speed the signal up, but it didnt cure it..helped..sort of. Dont know if Holley Carbs could ever suffer from this or not...Just a thought..

Wheeew... ;)

My timing is set @ 18*base, 32* all in by 2400rpm, im still playing with timing as this build is still fresh.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Coletrane,,,
lose the Victor Jr open plenum and mount a dual plane...

open plenum=at low rpms, the one piston that is on the intake stroke is trying to pull a vacuum from the entire huge intake cubic area in a very short time window and both carb primaries are exposed for air leakage...

dual plane=piston pulls from only half the total intake area volume and due to the divider wall under the carb the piston is pulling against only one carb primary worth of leakage...

the victor and your cam choice is a "race only" rpms operating range configuration...

carb cfm is correct (basically)
 
#12 ·
red65mustang said:
Coletrane,,,
loose the Victor Jr open plenum and mount a dual plane...

open plenum=at low rpms, the one piston that is on the intake stroke is trying to pull a vacuum from the entire huge intake cubic area in a very short time window and both carb primaries are exposed for air leakage...

dual plane= pulls from only half the total intake area volume and due to the divider wall under the carb the piston is pulling against only one carb primary worth of leakage...

your cam makes for next to no HP/TQ at low rpms/low Hg due to valves timing and the Victor is making it beyond tune-able
Keep the Vic Jr. A dual plane would not match the rest o the parts well, if anything step up to the Super Vic. You need a carb swap, as already indicated by the tech's at BG.
 
#13 · (Edited)
AP,
I re-worded my post (lol,,,as always...)
his choice,,,
he can have more power over the whole rpms range with a dual plane for "street manners" or just have a small percent more power at the HP peak with a open plenum...

off the top of my empty head illustration:
victor at 1900 is 60HP/170TQ with his cam(????)
dual plane is 90HP/220TQ (????) at 1900 due to higher HG=better velocity and cylinder fill and more better results per rpms with more rpms versus the victor...

not until the motor rpms actual total cfm exceeds the dual plane capacity will the victor actually make more power...

a compromise choice can be a RPM style dual plane which has a small part of the divider wall removed so it does behave like both types...
1900=75HP/200TQ???? with the RPM

edit: I checked my numbers "guesses" against my analyzer and they are in the ballpark,,,,rough numbers only because I don't have head spec's....
 
#14 ·
eric32

i dont know if all these people are gay-but ...disconnect your vac., advance crank your timing up - and have a good time!!!!! your combo needs alot of timing. i had this problem w/a low comp. 327 untill i dissed the vac. adv. + cranked the timing to 40!!!
 
#15 ·
Well to answer a few questions asked it only happens under load while driving through town or highway in normal driving. Hard acceleration there is none. I also have a slight miss at start up but it goes away after a few minutes. I got my carb tuned very well for idle and I used my vacuum gauge to do so. My timing is at 16 degrees with vacuum plugged off and I have a total of 32 total by 3000 rpm.

My plugs are brand new and it did it the very first time I drove it with the carb spacer on. I am thinking either its a very very faint light surge at that rpm from being just a tad to lean or the plug wires doing something. My cap is in excellent shape as is my coil etc. I have a new one setting aside and I might put it on once the weather breaks and see what it does.

I also only have a set of stock type plug wires and plan on getting something better then 20 dollar wires. Only got them cause I kept burning plug wires and boots and have finally fixed that problem. It seems to me the carb spacer is the culprit and I may have to go up one more size in jets on the front.

Eric
 
#16 · (Edited)
Coletrane,
correction (what was I thinking???):
Airgap has the small section under the carb removed not RPM so it behaves like a dual plane and open plenum....
and more base timing (=higher Hg) will likely help low rpms carb performance,,,bump the base 4* for 36 all in and test drive

Eric,
test or swap test the coil and test drive first,,,burned thru plug wires stressed the hell out of the coil wire windings insulation with extreme temp...
easy to test to know if it is still fine per attached once you know what your specific model coil primary and secondary ohms spec' are....
basically,,,test shows higher than spec ohms means less milli-amps at the plug to actually make heat,,,aka "a weak yellow spark"
(which combined with a slightly lean mix high Hg condition can cause a slight mis-fire)
life would be simpler if coils did die instantly,,they don't,,,they slowly degrade due to the heat!!!

then play with the carb....
(after checking that tightening did not crack the carb base and it is torque tight to the correct ft/lbs,,,gasket's do compress with heat cyles)

????
there is no other vac source on your set up that you could just put a "T" in that line and lose the spacer?
lol,,,RPM is already a "high rise" intake,,,add a 1" spacer make's it a "HIGH-HIGH" rise intake
 

Attachments

#17 ·
Well I don't have a extra port on the carb it only has the one in the back and I have to use that for my brakes. I was going to try and put a T fitting and run it into my brake hose but I don't want to do it that way.

I cant use the extra fitting on the intake cause my holley carb goes right over it cause edelbrock can't be smart enough to put the hole on down like the other intake makers do.

I am going to put a new cap and coil on that I got the other day and see how it does and go from there. If that does not work out and be the case I am going to remove my pcv and put a breather in that I got the other day to put into my valve cover and see how it does. All it needs to do is vent and I will be venting the crankcase pressure on both sides. The plugs are clean and I know its not them they are brand new. Yeah I know with the intake being a highrise its not even higher lol. Don't have that issue on my other motor with a one inch spacer.

Eric
 
#18 · (Edited)
eric,
(for future reference?)
they do make "low profile" vacuum source intake fittings to solve your problem....

random pick example:
http://www.race-mart.com/items/products/edelbrock/EDE8096-detail.htm

my method:
just use a $10? local parts store typically 1/4-3/8" thick oem vapor lock prevention insulating gasket (so the carb and gas stay cooler to help make power),,,, that is often enough gained clearance to then use just a "bench grinder customized" standard hardware store $1 fitting in the runner...

the reason most use a "T" at the carb base is it is a smoother signal from all 8 cylinders,,,,the hole on the runner is a very "choppy" signal from just that piston....
brake booster to the carb base and tranny to the manifold hole is the typical hook up...
 
#19 ·
This is the one inch spacer from Summit I was using, it has a threaded hole for a PCV takeoff fitting.
The fitting now resides on my two inch Summit spacer.
Image

Here it is on the car.
Image

It´s neat and works, and I´ve said before cleaned up my idle.
 
#20 ·
thanks guys for some more info. I did try one of those low profile fittings but it would not fit. It was close but not enough. I might try the gasket method but I really don't want to get rif of my spacer if I have too. I like using it for getting better fuel distribution plus it is a safe guard for no bolts falling down into the intake from the carb base.

At least I have read about 4 hole spacer's working to give your carb better bottom end signal and torque. I also did not want to use the pcv on the back of the intake cause of what was stated above. If I use one of the low profile fittings I am afraid of using it for brakes cause it accepts a 1/8 npt port for hook up which I can get to go from 1/8 to 3/8 but don't know if that will cause any issues. I have the brakes to the back of the carb and the transmission going to the front of carb. The distributor vacuum advance is going to the side of the carb on metering plate. Going to try a few things and see what is causing the miss. Process of elimination time.
thanks
Eric
 
#21 · (Edited)
malc,
open spacer on a dual plane hurts idle because it exposes both primary venturi...

the carb base 3/8" pcv fitting CFM "leak" is part of the engineered carb fuel feed curve...

blocking off the pcv carb nipple enrichened the A/F mix at idle is very likely why your idle improved...
(a smaller orifice opening diameter/heavier weight piston pcv valve for less leak would have likely done the same thing)

your motor is happy=leave it as is...

"back in the day" a few oem's did use a roughly 1/2" 4 hole spacer for pcv hook up because some carb's didn't have a pcv connect...
 
#22 ·
Sorry OP , I should start another topic..ill try to keep it short..& thanks guys for your input


red65mustang said:
Coletrane,,,
lose the Victor Jr open plenum and mount a dual plane...

open plenum=at low rpms, the one piston that is on the intake stroke is trying to pull a vacuum from the entire huge intake cubic area in a very short time window and both carb primaries are exposed for air leakage...

dual plane=piston pulls from only half the total intake area volume and due to the divider wall under the carb the piston is pulling against only one carb primary worth of leakage...

the victor and your cam choice is a "race only" rpms operating range configuration...

carb cfm is correct (basically)
I'd agree with that, I have a dual plane Edel Perf sittin in the corner and allllmost put it on, simply to rule out a few things, BUT......as AP72 mentioned, I tried to spec this build around my application, some street driveablity(its all relative and opinionated), and parts I wanted to run. Now..im not saying I did it all rite, hence my post..=)


ap72 said:
Keep the Vic Jr. if anything step up to the Super Vic. You need a carb swap, as already indicated by the tech's at BG.
Can you help me understand what benefits the Super Vic would provide? Ive pulled the Speed Demon, just not sure if I even want to go with BG again..carb suggestions?


red65mustang said:
Coletrane,
Airgap has the small section under the carb removed not RPM so it behaves like a dual plane and open plenum....
and more base timing (=higher Hg) will likely help low rpms carb performance,,,bump the base 4* for 36 all in and test drive
Wonder if I were to take the Edel Performer, remove half the intakes partition under the carb and run a 2" open spacer...


Thanks again.
 
#23 ·
malc,
open spacer on a dual plane hurts idle because it exposes both primary venturi...


For me the four hole spacer more low end torque just did´nt work.
The motor really woke up when I went to the one inch open spacer,
and now is for me perfect on the two inch open.
It stays.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Coletrane,
your cam HP peak (shift point) is 5900....

the Victor Jr is a 8000 max rpms intake (overkill/to big/4000+ operating range)...

performer is only rated up to 5500,,,,the small performer intake runners (almost oem stock size) would start choking the air supply at above 3000 where your cam does really turn on and make power....
(spacer is just a tuning aid, doesn't increase runners total flow)

to be more clear,,,I should have written use a "6500+ rpms rated dual plane" (because of your cam duration) like the Weiand Stealth series/RPM/airgap RPM/etc

malc,
you didn't mention the 4 hole test is why I put that open spacer comment into the thread...
(just info for who ever reads the thread)
 
#26 ·
Not long ago, someone posted a link to a dyno test of 3 intakes. On all 3 they tried a spacer to see if they could improve the numbers. The best power curve with the most HP was attained with an open 1" spacer on a dual plane with the divider notched like some of the Quadrajet factory sbc intakes. Very interesting and I wish I could find the link again. I think it was off one of those cable hot rod shows. :D
 
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