Throw that software away. I hate to tell you this again but that guesser isn't worth much on your type of combo especially when your inputs are optimistic guesses- garbage in garbage out. From stock heads and intake you may be able to squeeze out 300 ftlb on an actual build.

Firing order cams cost more, about a Franklin more.
It won't make a hill of beans difference on your combo
If you want a custom cam then prepare to pay for it, if you want cheap get an RV cam.
A custom cam from stock patterns will runn you about 325 with decent lifters.
A custom lobe will run you about a grand.

You're looking at a 3000 dollar engine build to match a 300 dollar junk yard 350... Or be worse than a 500 junkyard LT1 (which will bolt right in).

 

For once i agree with turbo,on ur app, 4/7 swap wont do anything and cost more.
Try the cam i suggested on that prgram n see what it does,time cam on marks,no adv.or delay.
I curious to no what elecronic dyno says with that cam.

 

Thanks for the replies!

Who would be about the cheapest company to get the cam from?

I will call em up and when I do, I will ask about the 4/7 swap.

In the dyno sim the rv cams did no good at all, I in fact tried the specs of every one I could find with my current set of components.

It would seem like a 4/7 swap would be the same price since it is a custom but then again I don't really know the prices, so that's why I posted. I am however interested in getting a cam tuned for my intake and heads and exhaust. I have measured the port sizes, runner lengths, valves, and headers as carefully as I could. I believe I am more on the right track now and that my data imput is no longer an optimistic guess but rather that I now have a realistic approach. My loyal critics would be proud of me I'm sure! I feel much better about this engine now with a little bit of knowledge about how proper intake tuning and cam timing affects the end result. This software has taught me much in a very short time and is freaking amazing I think.

There is even the 3/2 swap as well...

 

Those cams require special cores with the lobes swapped- why they cost more.

with cams you pay for what you get- cheapest is... cheapest.

If you want a good price for a good cam Isky is pretty good- there are better cams and lower prices but they have a good balance.

With all of that said, your run of the mill junk yard LT1 will blow the doors off of that engine on power, torque, and mileage, and will cost the same as a cam and matching valvetrain for the engine your proposing...

 

Google: Delta Cams, they should be able to hook you up,call them and tell them what you have in mind and they can grind it for you.

 

Those cams require special cores with the lobes swapped- why they cost more.

with cams you pay for what you get- cheapest is... cheapest.

If you want a good price for a good cam Isky is pretty good- there are better cams and lower prices but they have a good balance.

With all of that said, your run of the mill junk yard LT1 will blow the doors off of that engine on power, torque, and mileage, and will cost the same as a cam and matching valvetrain for the engine your proposing...

Well, it's no longer a proposition, as I already have it. I got it a few monthes ago for about 150 bucks. It has lotsa new parts already, it even has the cool script valve covers and a mint condition oil pan and the rams horn manifolds still.. I dunno what else new it has and neither did the guy I bought it from. When I took the valve cover off to see the head casting numbers, it was very clean inside like maybe it had recently been in the hot tank. Who knows, I will have to do a compression check on it later. It is hard to turn over with a 3/8 inch ratchet tho, so the compression must be kinda up there. Better than some motors that I have worked on lol. I will report the figures later after I bolt the starter on and crank it up. I was waiting to weld me up a hillbilly run stand on my trailer but just I wanna hear it run...

IF I had an LT1, I would definitely not hesitate to bolt the heads and valve train right on here tho.... And the fuel injection if I could! THAT would be cool! I would still get a custom cam tho...
283 with roller cam and fuel injection... Sweet. I could then interface with my laptop with all that cool datalogger software and interfaces they have...

Or I could just get a custom cam that works with what I already have and have an appropriate motor to stick my fish carby on. I am lucky to have this much!

FWIW, This 283 actually dynosims the same in hp and torque to the LT1 template they have in EAP at speeds over 2500 rpms, even with the proposed plane jane hydraulic flat tappet cam and stock heads and manifold. Nearly identical in every way, even in fuel consumption, nearly the same lb/hr. Try it yourself.

 

370 lb torque with a 283? Not without a nice 4-barrel, lots of compression and a cam that is RIGHT ON.

Take the dyno sim software, and throw it in a fire...that way you will get some real use from it.

Your not going to build lots of torque with a short stroke/big bore engine, your gonna get RPM and high rpm power.

I ran a 283 in a circle track car last season, had about 11:1 compression, .520/.533 lift cam, dome pistons, double hump heads...the works! It made like...320 ft/lb of torque, and at high rpm too, not really good for street vehicles, or for mileage.

4/7 swap cams, gonna get about 7-14 hp if everything else is set up right. And its gonna cost you! You add roller onto that, and your looking at $300-$700 for just a cam! Not really cheap! And add a custom grind onto that...i dont even want to think about it!!

I would suggest something with higher lift, to get a little more advantage from where this engine will make its power. But dont get crazy, prolly around .480-.490 lift, to start with.

LT1 heads, not sure they would fit a 283...I think i remember that the LT's are a totally different engine than the old sbc.

Fish carb...you mean the 100 mpg carb? lol...yeah...thats about all i can say about it...

 

BigRoy1978, It sounds like you are skeptical of the dyno sim. If you have never tried it then give it a whirl its fun! They even let ya try it for free. Think how much money you can save by buying parts you know will work in harmony with the rest of your gear. It doesn't have to be the hard way of trial and error, that gets expensive too! I guess you know .520 of lift is a heck of a lot, right? A high lift cam like that would not work well in a 283, you would know that had you tried the dyno sim. It even tells you why! It is all about air velocity, air has mass and therefore moving air has inertia. That inertia helps fill your cylinder, so too big on the lift will slow the air speed down and actually make your motor breath less air!! Confucius said, "You don't need a canon to kill a mosquito". (Seriously, he really did say that no joke) Less is sometimes more

That strategy works well on a 383 tho and they can use that amount of lift as it can easily generate alot of intake velocity even at low rpm to still be in tune (with the right sized intake runners and right length and diameter headers). It is much more forgiving of the state of tune, relying instead upon mechanical advantage of a long stroke turning the crank and high displacement.

The forces at work inside an engine rely on each other, take away one thing and it diminishes the whole more than that one part added all by itself. If I build a tuned 283(or 302) motor that works really well, and say I change one thing like I put shorty headers on there instead of the ones I have. Then all of a sudden that motor will make alot less power, you may think it was the headers making all that power as a result. You bolt them on your 350 and.... Nothing. Fizzle, They were enabling the cam duration and exhaust valves I have to function like expected tho, without them I still have exhaust leftover in the cylinder without the moving columns of air to help scavenge the cylinder, especially at low rpm. There are actually two harmonics, I could get away with headers roughly half length for peak power but I would lose the bottom end. Same goes for the heads the intake all of it you name it!! Take one out and the house of card falls apart.


I simply want to build a 283, I know some of you guys think it is ridiculous that I even would attempt something so absurd as to try to bring to a fine tune a tiny motor such as this when there is an easier (albeit mundane) way to accomplish the same thing. I am not doing it because I think it is a better way, not doing it because it is easier. Not doing because anybody told me to. It is just the way i want to do it. That's all really. Not that I had to explain but some of you guys just say the same kinda things all the time that have nothing to do with my post or whatever and I think it might help. That way if you have something negative or hyper critical, you could just save your self the trouble of typing it in.

Ok done lecturing now. I want to actually try the cam the program suggests if I can get a reground hydraulic flat tappet cam cheap enough, and see if it works like it sposta. It won't cost that much and it might really work. Also
I really want to know if anybody has tried the 4/7 or 3/2 swap or both at the same time even, and how it was. I am still reading about it and find it very interesting, since I am going to order the custom cam anyway I would ask you guys about the firing order swap.

My fish carb works great too btw, I used it on a 350 chevy in a suburban for last three or four years, and it is only a one barrel!!! It isn't a 100 mpg carb and it never claimed it was if you read about it a little. People just seem lump it in there with them. It is actually a very nice carburetor. It is old, and matches my old motor.
Pretty cool I think!

Thanks, Austin

 

A high lift cam like that would not work well in a 283, you would know that had you tried the dyno sim. It even tells you why! It is all about air velocity, air has mass and therefore moving air has inertia. That inertia helps fill your cylinder, so too big on the lift will slow the air speed down and actually make your motor breath less air!!

What makes you believe lift has a negative effect on port velocity? There is a LOT that you assume to be a big deal that ISN'T- while you neglect to realize or accept what IS important.

I don't know who said, "You can lead a horse to water- but you can't make them drink", but it applies.

 

There's an expresion, "we don't race dynos" and unfortunately being a master jockey of the desktop dyno is relatively meaningless.

The info he gave you on the 283 was spot on- despite what some program told you. With stock heads and intake you can expect about 1 ftlb per ci on an otherwise well tuned 283- there is no way around that. If you like building engines on a computer I suggest you get an X-box. They have some really neat racing games.

 

What makes you believe lift has a negative effect on port velocity? There is a LOT that you assume to be a big deal that ISN'T- while you neglect to realize or accept what IS important.

I don't know who said, "You can lead a horse to water- but you can't make them drink", but it applies.

If I may, what do you think is really important then Cobalt327?

 

There's an expresion, "we don't race dynos" and unfortunately being a master jockey of the desktop dyno is relatively meaningless.

The info he gave you on the 283 was spot on- despite what some program told you. With stock heads and intake you can expect about 1 ftlb per ci on an otherwise well tuned 283- there is no way around that. If you like building engines on a computer I suggest you get an X-box. They have some really neat racing games.

That is not only inaccurate but condescending too. I appreciate your opinion, but try to give me some reason why you think that or your words will hold no weight.

 

Its not rude at all, running a program is nothing close to building an engine, and there's not a damn thing wrong with Xbox, I have a Wii but Xbox does have better racing games. If you like building engines on a computer many of those games allow you to do that. If you want to learn to build an engine then trash the program get the sand out of your ears and start listening to the people who have been there, done that, got the t-shirt, and have used the t shirt as a shop rag.

 

If I may, what do you think is really important then Cobalt327?

You may not.

Do some research- REAL research, not just parroting some half-baked theories or internet BS.

You choose to skip to the beat of a different drummer- so be it. So forget believing me or anyone else who you disagree w/here on this forum. I mean, WE only have maybe a thousand-plus years of combined experience, so who are we to presume to know anything?

There are MANY good, informative papers written by people who know what they're talking about. Avail yourself of the wisdom contained therein.

 

So you are convinced I will never get more than 283 hp out of stock heads and manifold carb etc? That this program that costs 500 bucks if you buy it and that alot people seem to like, is wrong? Have you tried using it and seeing how accurate it is? Don't hold back man, tell me all about it if you have because I want to hear.

 

Go to this thread: http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/283-performance-engine-build-173883-2.html?highlight=283

In there is a sim of a 283 that got some outrageous amount of HP/TQ. If you want to see big, simulated numbers, it can't be easily beaten, IMO.

 

You may not.

Do some research- REAL research, not just parroting some half-baked theories or internet BS.

You choose to skip to the beat of a different drummer- so be it. So forget believing me or anyone else who you disagree w/here on this forum. I mean, WE only have maybe a thousand-plus years of combined experience, so who are we to presume to know anything?

There are MANY good, informative papers written by people who know what they're talking about. Avail yourself of the wisdom contained therein.

First off, we do not have to agree to be friends right?

Just because I challenge what you say or somebody says does not mean I don't listen, it means I want to hear more. I will never bow down and simply take your words as absolute without question. At least understanding how you came to that conclusion, or where you heard it. Some people just want to spout off a buncha stuff as if it is fact simply to hear themselves speak all authoritatively because it makes them feel important. Those same people then have nothing to say or even get insulted when you ask them why or how or "what makes you think that?"... Well the bigger the ego the easier it is to bruise I suppose, that does makes sense.

 

I have already suggested how you can go about actually learning something as opposed to constantly asking to be spoon-fed.

I will impart my knowledge to whom I choose, WHEN I choose, and I will not be coerced into doing your work for you. You can call it ego-driven. I call it pearls before swine.

 

Go to this thread: http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/283-performance-engine-build-173883-2.html?highlight=283

In there is a sim of a 283 that got some outrageous amount of HP/TQ. If you want to see big, simulated numbers, it can't be easily beaten, IMO.

Thank you cobalt, the hp numbers in the sim are really not that high though in my case, I am trying to milk all the torque I can tho from this little motor at 3800 rpm as that is about 55mph.

I am trading for a better van. I just learned yesterday though that even tho it came with a 6.2 diesel from the factory, its rear end is actually worse than mine at 5.29:1 according to the id tag on the pumpkin. That may be why it has a motor that doesn't run. She took it on a road trip on the highway... had to get towed 140 miles home. $$$. I bet she just over revved it trying to keep up with traffic. It has a rockwell international rear differential and is very pricey to change gears, like 2000 dollars I saw online. Maybe I could find a different rear end from the bone yard but for now it looks as if the 283 project is back on. I already have couple 283 motors so might as well test all this theory out lol

I will talk with ya anytime about stuff, even if you think Im swine. You can't really knock me down much man, I am already on the ground. Swine have thick skins...

 

FWIW, "...pearls before swine" does not reference you as being swine.

It is a biblical expression that pertains to not wasting something that is valued by the benefactor, to someone who is incapable or unwilling- for whatever reason- of appreciating it.

 

I like 283s, just never got the fuel mileage.

Go to this thread: http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/283-performance-engine-build-173883-2.html?highlight=283

In there is a sim of a 283 that got some outrageous amount of HP/TQ. If you want to see big, simulated numbers, it can't be easily beaten, IMO.

Biker.... Have you considered stroking a 267? I thought about it, stroked up to 3.625", TPI with a 700r4, 4/7 cam in a 2900 pound body. Wouldn't sound cool, but I think with a few tricks I could pull off 25/26 mpg.

Or you could destroke a 267 to 3" and make something like a 229.
Would you consider running a 267 on your dyno, destroked to a 3" crank? .. And see what the cid is and post what the Horsepower is at 7000?

 

the hp numbers in the sim are really not that high though in my case,

That's where you're mistaken, the simulated numbers are VERY high.

Oh, and FWIW you can get dyno programs like the one you're using that cost between free and about $500. The real programs that actually do a fairly god job if you use good inputs are about $30,000-$50,000. Hell given about a half a days effort I could create a spreadsheet in Excel that would come damn close to the "dyno" you're playing with- doesn't mean it would be worth anything in real life.

Just about everything you can imagine has been done with an sbc, if you had some magic combination it would have been done a hundred times already, that engine is one of the most mass produced engines ever, and you're not even proposing using updated parts (roller cams, heads, intakes, etc.). What you're proposing was tried all the way back in the late sixties, its really not different at all.

 

Really really

Hey all,
I just ran the destroked 267 on my dyno. It's a 230 cid. Amazing I got over 600 hp at 8000. Pretty good huh?

 

There's a guy who has some sort of sim/3D deal he's selling HERE and donating 50% to the Free Speech fund. But it now seems that there may be a problem getting it to work, or possibly receiving all that was supposed to be included- mainly it seems the 3D part is missing?

Hopefully one of the moderators will look into it- there is no designated mod for the Free Speech Auction forum, so someone will need to step up.

 

Delta cams or Webcabs will do custom grinds. I had a pair of cams ground from billet for my Porsche for $1350. I doubt a single SBC cam would be half that.

As for Engine Analyzer Pro... It's pretty darn accurate as long as you have all the correct input info. The more you guess or use stock models the less accurate. Something as simple as forgetting to select intake manifold heat can make HUGE differences in the simulated outputs. Or having the wrong valve lash rate on a solid cam. Easy things to miss.

On some combos you get lucky and the manufacturers have provided lots on info regarding heads and flow or cam specs. But even then two cams with the safe lift and duration can still be slightly different base on ramp rates.

Other times manufacturers inflate their specs or at least use ideal conditions to measure, not real world. Some manufacturers measure flow rates on heads at 28", some 25", make a big difference. I got a set of procomp heads and would not have dared to use their published flow numbers in Engine Analyzer Pro and expect realistic results.

Measuring your own heads for intake runner volume and diameter does not tell the whole story as we all know that a good port job will make a huge difference while only taking away a very small amount of material. Surface and shape are as important as size and volume of runners.

As for a custom ground cam, it may boil down to 2-3% more performance over an off the shelf cam for 3-4 times the cost. Not worth it. For the cost of a custom cam grind you can get a stock cam and a 383 bottom end. Find the shelf grind closest to what you want. Also describe your set up to the cam manufactures and they will give you a decent recommendation.

Best of luck and don't let folks rattle your cage. When folks give solid advice and someone doesn't seem to be listening they can get frustrated. I, like you, don't accept everything on the internet at face value and continue to ask questions to the point of being annoying at times. It's how I learn. Well, time to get back on the short bus...