What brand of clear have you been using. 60 degrees is a bit cool for applying clear coat....for most brands and most tech sheets recommend nothing under 65 degrees but, without knowing what brand, it's hard to tell what was recommended by the manufacturer.

Using not enough hardner would make your clear not withstand things like solvent (gasoline) or sunlight but, it would get hard, to much hardner would mean that your clear would take longer to set up, especially in cooler temperatures, but if temperatures remained above or at what the tech sheets recommend, eventually it would set up...reducers would make the clear thinner but, it shouldn't affect the durability.

My guess, and without more information and given the amount of time you've been waiting (and this is a guess) is that the clear was applied when the temperatures where to cool...you mentioned that at the time the vehicle was sprayed it was 60 degrees...if it got cooler after the car was sprayed, that would reinforce what I'm thinking. Any catalyzed product is extremely temperature sensitive and spraying at about 60 degrees, give or take a few degrees could have a drastic effect on the material and how it reacts. With more information, I may be able to be more certain of my beliefs.

Ray

 

Hello

Thanks for the reply,

1)The brand is mipa 2k hs klarlack cs 90

2) 60○f was the lowest it would have dropped too once the parts were painted, i gave it a couple sessions with a shortwave infrared heater which heated it to130○f for 15mins x2 for a short interval

3) im positive i got the mixtures of hardeners, thinners, clear spot on, checked data sheet an used scales to measure ratios

I have the technical data sheet an it recommends operating conditions from minimum 50○f an 75% relative air humidity,

Could applying the clearcoat a little thick per coat cause this, i dont really get runs but still not sure if im a little trigger happy im using 1.5 nozzle it does recommend 1.2-1.4 but 1.5 was the closest i have available, its the only thing i can think of now.

Regards nick

An thankyou so much for the reply again

 

Not a problem, happy to reply and hopefully help you out. I'm not familiar with that brand of clear coat but, the general rule of thumb is that if you put clear coat on and it didn't run, either you didn't put enough on, you put on the right amount or something between those parameters. So, putting it on to heavy should be removed from the equation.

If the tech sheet says that 50 degrees is the minimum, you used an infrared lamp and it didn't get any colder than 60 degrees, your well within the limits of application temperature.

Some clears don't set up as hard as others but, being able to mark the clear after 1 month isn't acceptable, at least not to my standards. As I said, I'm not familiar with that brand of clear coat, however, if this is the results your getting, this clear won't be on my must try list.

Does the clear water spot after washing? You mentioned that you've used polish on it and it came up nice and shiny, how much effort was required in bringing the shine back...a softer clear will take less effort than a harder clear coat...that being said, usually a softer clear won't have the durability of a harder clear within reason. Some clears are just to hard, don't polish well and when you get hit by a rock or any other object, they have a tendency to shatter more than chip. You mentioned how hard an OEM finish is, polishing an OEM finish (for minor scratches that type of thing) often is much more difficult than most aftermarket clears...for me, that isn't desirable either.

You may have a clear that just doesn't get that hard...if it gets hard enough to polish, is solvent resistant and offers protection from the elements...what you have may well be what the manufacturer was after...This is one of those cases where I wish I could see it, touch it and test it to be more conclusive....have you tried testing it to see if it is solvent resistant? That would be my biggest concern right now...if it is, your fine, if not, how would you refinish that panel if you ever needed to?

Ray

 

Thankyou

What do you mean by water spotting? I have washed an dried it several times an it doesnt leave any permanent marks if thats what you mean, jus same as washing an oem finish

It polished up quite easy tbh looked great an didnt take very long, when i purpose fully dig my nail in an chip abit out cant do it over the entire panel just certain areas there is a slight gasy paint smell upon chiping it an try to smell on purpose all this was intential destructive testing to see if it was set properly an it seems it didnt.

I did make the paint store aware of the problem i was having with slightly soft clear coat an explained i wanted oem like hardness, so do believe this clear is suposed to set hard as nails upon his advice

Also just fort to mention i put the panel back on the car after 34ish hrs an the following morning there was a little condensation on them, trying to supply as much info as i can

Thankyou again

Regards nick

 

***no i havent tested the solvent resistance yet but i will, an i do intend on sanding it back an starting again im not happy with the softness, an i know it would probably be beneficial for you to actualy get hold of it, all i can do is for me to expalin best i can to me it feels kind of rubbery dont know if thats paranoia though***

Regards nick

 

By water spotting I mean if you left a drop of water on the clear and let it dry, would it leave a ring that wiping wouldn't remove? This can be common with clears that have a curing issue.

You just mentioned that if you chip a certain area, you get a "slight gassy paint smell"...how many coats of base did you put on, how much flash time (time between coats) and what temperature of reducer did you use? Was it the same brand of paint as the clear coat? Was the temperature the same (60 degrees) when you applied the base coat?

These base (color) and needs to be completely flashed before clear can be applied...if not, you may have a problem with trapped solvents...the fact that you can smell solvent when you open the clear with your finger nail is a little worrisome. If the solvents hadn't evaporated prior to applying the clear, you could have adhesion problems down the road where the clear will lift right of the base coat...Now, I'm not saying that this is going to happen, I'm just saying that the clear is staying soft, the panel was painted in cool conditions...and in cool conditions, what may appear to be flashed...may not be.

This is something to watch out for in the future...as I mentioned...these products are very temperature sensitive.

Ray

 

I haven't read every word of this discussion only the first few posts so forgive me if this has been said.


To me this is the most tell tale words on the problem you have.
4) shortwave infrared heater 2x15min sessions with a 5-10min gap, the panels in questions were plastic an i didnt want to melt them (again)

But if the clear is applied a bit heavy even with the time between coats you could have had some trapped solvents being you hit it with the heat lamp. The top could have kicked leaving that solvent in the film.

One thing to do is to sand it with 1000 and leave it out in the sun a few days then buff it and see what you have. It could be to late and will never fully kick but that often times will get you a hard surface where you didn't have it before.

Brian

 

Hi

Okay then no, no water spottingits always wipes clean.

Base coat i did 3 coats metalic silver, the base was an acrylic 1k with slow thinners, which was sold to me with the primer filler an clearcoat at same time as a complete painting set including all thinners an hardners, all compatible with each other

Then a clear base coat acrylic 1k again slow thinners as a carrier for a sunburnt candy dye, 3 coats again with an 1hr flash off time between last clear base with candy before i applied the clearcoat

An the temperatures remained the same around 60○f with the exception of not using the infrared on the base coats

Nick

 

Brian...I would agree with the trapped solvent philosophy...and I understand that you haven't read the entire thread...but I'm starting to think that the trapped solvents would be from the base coat being sprayed in cool temperatures...you know how base coat can appear flashed and still have solvents left in it...especially in cool conditions...now that I hear that he can smell solvents when he opens the clear...I'm even more suspect of the base not being flashed enough...and yes, that could cause the clear not to get real hard....those solvents will come out...one way or another.

Ray

 

Hello Martinsr

I only used the infrared after all painting had been completed i.e after last clearcoat with 20min outgas before putting heat on, it been a shortwave i was told these heaters are designed to dry from to bottom upwards, i.e underneath to top outer layer, really not trying to contradict anyone or be rude hope its not coming across that way jus trying to fill in as much info as i can, so i can get the advice i greatfully need, still new to this an dont always understand some things that are been put forward

Thankyou an look forward to any further replies

Nick

 

Slow thinners, 60 degrees...not a good combination...on top of that...it's a tri coat and you now have 6 layers of base coat...with slow thinner....I'm sorry Rick...It does sound like trouble right around the corner...to me, it looks like trapped base coat solvents...and we've already mentioned the common end result of that.

Ray

 

If those heat lamps only dried from the bottom up, you would have no problem, and no solvent odor when you open up the clear. The solvent odor is the evidence, the finger prints at the crime scene that there is indeed solvent in the film. What solvent, that is only a guess, it could be base or it could be clear, or of course a combination of the two. But it sure sounds like that is all there is too it, if every thing was mixed properly, with the temp being a little low, and a little heavy on the gun and the heat lamp sealing off the top of the film.....it was a perfect storm is what it sounds like to me.

The next time you spray something put that heat lamp on one panel and have a test panel off to the side without the heat lamp on it, tell me if the clear under the heat lamp doesn't go "hand slick" first. That is where you can very lightly rub your finger over it without leaving a mark. If it was truly drying from the inside out the top surface would stay WET longer than if the heat lamp wasn't there! But that doesn't happen, it IS flashing off that top surface first.

And what is the model and brand of your "Shortwave infrared" heat lamp. A short wave is a lot of bucks, where as a medium wave like I have two of in my garage are pretty affordable. So I wonder if you do have a shortwave?

No offence taken believe me, especially with me "side busting" in the conversation without reading every word. Just tossing something out there for you guys and hope I am not being rude.

Brian

 

Hello ray

Yes could be, probably is specially if you say the base coat solvents could cause the clear to stay soft sounds about right with the gasy smell aswell upon breaking open the clear its not a problem, im here to learn an half expected there to be some set backs, most important thing to me is to figure out my mistakes an then try an try again till its right, that itself is a win to me

Nick

 

Hello brian

The lamp was an unbranded oem apparently, i payed $256 just 1 lamp with the single bulb enough for the size of a alloy wheel no timer or temperature control just the basic lamp as far as im aware, just a newbie to all this so trusted the seller, but yeah i was under the impresion that 1k basecoats dry alot faster than 2k clears but maybe with the slow thinners in the base i have trapped them i just didnt see any solvent pop so dis regarded it at first, but been told those solvents could be the reason my clear is soft an there was alot of base coats, so just try again with faster thinners an longer flash time, an hopefully trouble solved

an no i didnt take it as rude the more advice the better, i dont mind anyone coming in an pointing out other things
Thankyou again

 

And both Brian and I have your best interest at heart and appreciate the wanting to learn attitude. to start off with, I now see your from the UK...that might explain why I've never heard of the product that your using...and even though SPI was recommended and they do have some European distribution...I really don't know if they have any distribution in the UK.

When you say 1K base coat, I'm assuming that you mean base color with reducer, no hardner...that is similar to the solvent based base coats we have here...and yes, they do dry faster than a 2K clear...but, the solvents need to be completely gone before applying clear coat otherwise solvents will be trapped. Also, using a slow reducer in your base coat at the temperatures that you where spraying the base coat, I can virtually tell you for certain that the solvents had not left the base coat before you applied the clear. In the future, try and have a warmer environment for applying either base coat or clear coat...and primers as well. Judging flash times is difficult enough when you have temperatures in the 70 degree range and using a medium reducer...let alone a slow reducer and spraying in the 60 degree range.

I always say that there are so many variables that we can't control, we need to use the right product for the variables that we can.

Ray

 

Maybe the op should leave these out in direct sun light for a week or so. It might help an might not but it won't hurt anything. I painted a panel with 2k black an mistakenly add clear coat hardener to it instead of reducer, it would never harden up so I moved it out side, after about 4 days it harden up, I'll go away now.

 

I have seen that work, sanded then left out in the sun.

Brian

 

True Brian and Dogwater...it does work and it's a good idea...This time of year however, where I live and the OP, if we get 8 hours of daylight a day let alone sunlight, where doing good...LOL

Ray

 

Hello

Sorry about the quick exit last night........ well atleast it was in the uk,
This has been a real insight to me very gratefull for excellant advice

An yes i was refering to the 1k as just basecoat an reducer

Ive gone past the point of repair with the destructive testing so to speak, so a wet sanding an leaving in sun is out of question but i will keep that in mind if im ever unfortunate to have similar troubles.

Anyhows on all the advice greatfully recieved, im going to take it away an use,

1)first of all try a quicker basecoat reducer

2)leave longer flash times between my basecoats (with whats been expalained by both of you im leaning towards its trapped solvents thats the root of the problem) i did give very generous flash times with the clearcoat, but the basecoats been 6 layers an not ideal temperatures an slow reducer an the paint smell only when i chip the paint down to the 1st stage metallic silver which was before candy dye in a basecoat clear as carrier, think i was too hasty with my flash times there

So i'll put this into practice at my next opportunity think it maybe hard to find the spi product to be honest but thanks for the sound advice an i believe that this will solve my troubles

Regards nick

 

I hope it all works out well fr you Rick...and don't be in to much of a hurry to go to faster reducers, especially on a metallic color....the lower reducers help the metallic's to even out...that being said...if the temperatures are warmer and a slow reducer, that's perfect...if your attempting to spray in cooler temperatures, before you speed up the reducer, try and warm up the environment...if possible.

If you have further questions feel free to ask.

Ray

 

Hi

Okay, so going back to the try warmer enviroment first, could i basically lay down all my coats of base be it a single solvent basecoat (for example, lay 3 coats of base with fhe usual 15-20 flash times, but dew to the cold enviroment, could i put the infrared heater on for 5-10 mins, this isntgoin to somehow seal the 3rd pass/coat before the 1st an 2nd have released all there solvents is it)

Regards nick

 

it's the UV you need to cure, which is still present even though it isn't necessarily sunny.

 

True Josh, the UV is present, however with cloud cover, the UV index is lower, UV by itself still needs a certain amount of heat, you can throw all the UV you want at paint at -30 and it won't cure...it may freeze dry...LOL.

Ray

 

Very Good question Rick...Important temperatures are ambient air temperature and metal/plastic temperature...these should be looked at before using infrared...infrared is designed to cure paint but, if the ambient temperature is low and the surface temperature of the painted surface is cool. infrared will defeat it owns purpose....in short, infrared is designed to speed up the curing process, but if your environment and surface temperatures are low or even at the recommended temperatures for the material, the infrared can't so it's job properly.

So, to answer your question, even if you applied paint material to a cool surface and then used your infrared lamp...the solvent wouldn't properly be released and solvent trapping will occur. As I mentioned, the ideal situation, especially for a metallic color is have the air and metal temperature at about 70 degree, allow proper flash times (and this is where it gets very tricky but I'll try and explain).

You can have temperatures of say 60 degrees and use a fast reducer rated at say 60 degrees...however, evaporation of anything causes cooling. Stick your finger finger in a a container of reducer or even water, take it out and blow on it....your finger will cool, as the reducer evaporates, it will cool your panel, dropping the panel temperature below the minimum requirements, even for a fast solvent...and again, solvents will be trapped. This is where ambient air temperature comes into play, With an ambient air temperature of say 70 degrees, use a slow reducer, the surface temperature will drop but be in the requirements of the product to evaporate and still give you the metallic control needed.

One way to check to see if your base coat has flashed is to apply your base coat to the panel and have another unpainted panel beside it. After the painted surface feels as though it has dried or flashed, feel the painted surface with one hand and with the other hand feel the unpainted surface.....When they feel as though they are the same temperature...the solvent shave left the painted surface. Give it an additional 10 minutes of flash time for insurance purposes and apply the next coat...repeat this process until it it's time to clear (obviously you can't put your hand on flashing clear but, you can feel areas that have over spray. When those areas are sticky, stringy to the touch, not wet and you can feel the catalyst working, it's time for another coat. After your last coat of clear, use your infrared lamp at about 3 feet away, to cure the clear...you don't cure base coat, you cure clear by speeding up the chemical reaction between the catalyst and clear coat...and that's what the infrared lamp does.

I hope this explains and gives you measures you can use to properly judge your flash times, again, if you need more clarification, please feel free to ask.

Ray

 

I just reread your posts Nick....sorry I got the name wrong...damn this old age...LOL

Ray

 

Its fine made me laugh when i saw it, ive been called worse lol, an back to one of your posts ive actually got one of those laser gun thermomemters so i can take temperature readings without having to touch the panels it just shoots a laser at the object an then takes a temp reading just incase i touch wet paint too soon,
An further to keeping the enviroment warm to help things i guess i could pre-heat the panel been painted an possibly warm the paints a little, its just i havent heating in my garage yet i do plan to get some form of radiator or something installed at some point but as its near christmas its not a option at the minute

Regards nick