I don't know if this is a repost but can someone clear these three engines up for me really good. Oh and by the way can someone tell me what "points" is ?
~Blackbob~
~Blackbob~
Blackbob
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351WINSOR SMALL BLOCK DESIGN 351MILAN DIG BLOCK ,351CLEVLAND BIG BLOCK, CLEVLAN HAS SAME BELL HOUSING BOLT PATTERN AS WINSOR AND 302, TWO VERSIONS OF THE CLEVLAND WERE MADE 2V, 4V, DIFFERENCE IN THE HEAD, INTAKE , AND EXHAUST PORTS, MOST POWERFULL OF ALL THE 351S,MADE FROM 1969 TILL 1973 351M NORMALY HAD SERIOUS MAIN BEARING, CRANK SHAFT PROBLEM, HIGH TORQUE, LOW HORSE POWER, BOAT ANCHOR METRIAL, Point are a form of ignition out dated mid 70s electronic much better,. HOPE I REALLY DIDNT CONFUSE YOU MORE
Here in Australia we made the 302/351 Clevelands are very common from 1971? untill the early 1980's and it powered almost all the V8 Family cars from Ford Australia, Windsors came with cars before that time and also just in the last few years. Clevelands have a good reputation here the Ford 351 GT's won our 1000 km Bathurst race a few times and were a good match for the 202 straight six and later 308 V8 Holden Toranas, The Fords were big tanks of cars and the Toranas very light so it worked out just nicely, as far as history goes I've read the Cleveland was especially designed to beat the small block chev in Nascar, since at the time the Windsor wasn't cutting it in Nascar, The Clevelands got very big ports, sure looks like a factory race motor to me
351 Clevelands were great in their time but the Windsor wins hands down nowdays. The Cleveland had the best flowing heads for a SB Ford before aftermarket heads, thats what made them great motors pre 1990s. As for differences the Cleveland amd Windsor had a SB bellhousing bolt pattern while the 351M had a 429-460 pattern. The oiling on a 351 Windsor oils the mains first then the cam bearings, then the top end, on a Cleveland or M the oiling goes to both the cam and main bearings at the same time then to the top end. Windsors had a inline valvetrain while the Cleveland and M had a canted valvetrain. Windsors have a wet intake while Cleveland and M have a dry intakes. The mains caps on a Windsor are 2 bolt non splayed while the Cleveland had 2 or 4 bolt mains with splayed caps, the M had just 2 bolt splayed caps. Timing covers for the Windsor is a cast aluminum piece while the Cleveland and M have a stamped steel piece. Clevelands have smaller diameter mains than a Windsor or M, BTW the M has a 351 Windor crank in it. The motor mounts on a Cleveland and Windsor are the same, the 351M is quit a bit different, 351c amd M have the same valve covers while the Windsor is the same as the 289,302. Clevelands are good if they are built right 351M are good for scrap iron and the Windsor is the best of the bunch.
351 c ...decent motor, fubar oiling system, 2v heads too small, 4v heads, NO port velocity below 4000 rpm
351m....smaller version of the 400. basically useless (imo)
351w.... logical progression/extension if the 221/260/289. thinwall casting, large bearing area, good oiling system. Capable of impressive amounts of horsepower. Also reliable for use in the daily beater/work truck.
given the choice, the 351w is the winner hands down in this contest.The 351c is getting a little hard to come by & most of the performance pieces are a little pricey. If you have access to a 400, don't pass it up if the price is right. Small cam, minor port work, attention to the oiling system...you can build a torque monster for not a lot of green
Points....think Fred Flintstone ignition technology. There is NO reason to use a point trigger distributor. at least upgrade to a DurasparkII unit, cheap, easy to find in the local salvage facility.
351m....smaller version of the 400. basically useless (imo)
351w.... logical progression/extension if the 221/260/289. thinwall casting, large bearing area, good oiling system. Capable of impressive amounts of horsepower. Also reliable for use in the daily beater/work truck.
given the choice, the 351w is the winner hands down in this contest.The 351c is getting a little hard to come by & most of the performance pieces are a little pricey. If you have access to a 400, don't pass it up if the price is right. Small cam, minor port work, attention to the oiling system...you can build a torque monster for not a lot of green
Points....think Fred Flintstone ignition technology. There is NO reason to use a point trigger distributor. at least upgrade to a DurasparkII unit, cheap, easy to find in the local salvage facility.
"...a three year old post gets a reply?"
A pointless, never ending debate that came up so often that the FTE Moderator posted this in their forum guidelines.
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/123548-forum-guidelines.html
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"In the interest of promoting harmony and civil discourse in this forum it has been decided that there are a couple of guidelines that all posters to this forum should follow:
2. Avoid speculation on whether the 351M/400 is a "big block" or "small block". These are generic terms which generally apply to Ch*vy motors not our beloved blue oval mills so they really have no place in this group. The 351M/400 has elements relating to both the 385 series and the Windsor series and attempting to categorize them is futile, especially when using monikers which FoMoCo never adopted.
T.I.A. for your cooperation."
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The only correct terms for pre-modular, Ford V8s are Windsor, 335 series, FE (Ford-Edsel), and 385 series. Ford never used the term "Big Block" when referring to any 335 series engine.
351C 2V is a decent motor. The 2V ports will outflow all the Windsor factory iron heads. The oiling system is the same design as the 460 and requires very little attention unless you're running sustained 7000+rpm speeds.
The 351C 4V is a kick *** engine and the 4V heads having NO port velocity is a common exaggeration. The air is not stagnant by any means and yes, lower rpm velocity is less than the 2Vs but they have a better intake port location and short side radius.
4V port velocity can be drastically improved with the right components. For street applications, stay away from single plane intakes, long duration cams, and large primary tube diameter headers. 4Vs work great on stroker Cs and 400s.
351M is a destroked 400 with the only significant difference being the crank and pistons. They have the exact same potential when a 400 crank or 351W stroker crank is swapped (434 stroker kits are available) so I would never call them useless.
351Ws need aftermarket heads to make impressive amounts of horsepower. A lot of aftermarket heads for the 351C have become available in the last few years. Blue Thunder (2), AFD (2), CHI (3), Edelbrock(1) and Procomp (1). Competition helps reduce pricing.
As many as 4 companies are working on aftermarket blocks with improved oiling and thicker cylinder walls. Once these become available you could build an entire 351C engine using aftermarket parts.
At this time, the 351W is the winner when discussing costs but when it comes to performance I'd suggest researching the PHR Small Block Engine Masters Challenge held a couple years ago and take note that the Kasse built 1st place engine was a 351C using CHI 3V heads. BTW, when forced to categorize a 335 series engines for competition purposes, they are generally accepted as small blocks.
A pointless, never ending debate that came up so often that the FTE Moderator posted this in their forum guidelines.
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/123548-forum-guidelines.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In the interest of promoting harmony and civil discourse in this forum it has been decided that there are a couple of guidelines that all posters to this forum should follow:
2. Avoid speculation on whether the 351M/400 is a "big block" or "small block". These are generic terms which generally apply to Ch*vy motors not our beloved blue oval mills so they really have no place in this group. The 351M/400 has elements relating to both the 385 series and the Windsor series and attempting to categorize them is futile, especially when using monikers which FoMoCo never adopted.
T.I.A. for your cooperation."
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The only correct terms for pre-modular, Ford V8s are Windsor, 335 series, FE (Ford-Edsel), and 385 series. Ford never used the term "Big Block" when referring to any 335 series engine.
351C 2V is a decent motor. The 2V ports will outflow all the Windsor factory iron heads. The oiling system is the same design as the 460 and requires very little attention unless you're running sustained 7000+rpm speeds.
The 351C 4V is a kick *** engine and the 4V heads having NO port velocity is a common exaggeration. The air is not stagnant by any means and yes, lower rpm velocity is less than the 2Vs but they have a better intake port location and short side radius.
4V port velocity can be drastically improved with the right components. For street applications, stay away from single plane intakes, long duration cams, and large primary tube diameter headers. 4Vs work great on stroker Cs and 400s.
351M is a destroked 400 with the only significant difference being the crank and pistons. They have the exact same potential when a 400 crank or 351W stroker crank is swapped (434 stroker kits are available) so I would never call them useless.
351Ws need aftermarket heads to make impressive amounts of horsepower. A lot of aftermarket heads for the 351C have become available in the last few years. Blue Thunder (2), AFD (2), CHI (3), Edelbrock(1) and Procomp (1). Competition helps reduce pricing.
As many as 4 companies are working on aftermarket blocks with improved oiling and thicker cylinder walls. Once these become available you could build an entire 351C engine using aftermarket parts.
At this time, the 351W is the winner when discussing costs but when it comes to performance I'd suggest researching the PHR Small Block Engine Masters Challenge held a couple years ago and take note that the Kasse built 1st place engine was a 351C using CHI 3V heads. BTW, when forced to categorize a 335 series engines for competition purposes, they are generally accepted as small blocks.
351W is a smallblock 4 inch bore 3.500 stroke
351C is a bigblock 4 inch bore 3.500 stroke
351M is a big block 4 inch bore 4.000 stroke
351C is a bigblock 4 inch bore 3.500 stroke
351M is a big block 4 inch bore 4.000 stroke
400 Power
I have a 1976 cougar with a 400M. I have always thought the 400 was very underrated when it came to performance. Everyone knows you can put 4V Cleveland heads on it but the knock I always heard was the main journals were not small like the 351C. It has 2.75 in journals and the 400 has 3.00in. meaning more friction. The thing that always confused me is that both 400M and Windsor block have 3.000 in. main journals. The 351 W has become the darling of the Ford set. It is being stroked out to 427 and has gobs of horsepower. What’s the difference? Mine has been overbored.030 and is 408 inches by my calculations. Why is it always regarded as a truck engine suitable only for low-end torque?
Recently I have acquired a set of Australian heads for my engine. I also have a Weiand dual plane manifold and Edelbrock 750CFM Carb. I also have a Holley 600CFM. As you know, the Australian heads have standard (2V) ports and valves. I would very much like to optimize both performance and efficiency without spending a fortune. The most "bang for the buck" idea. Before doing too much, I have some questions.
I intend to port match the heads. I plan to use 1 7/8 headers with 2 1/4 Collectors. I also plan to use roller rockers with 1.7 ratio.
Should I:
1. Use 4V exhaust valves (1.71)?
2. Use 4V Intakes?
3. Use the stock Duraspark or an MSD type ignition?
4. Use a roller cam or dual hydraulic?
5. Polish the exhaust ports?
I have obviously gone to the wrong thread. I'll try again elsewhere.
I have a 1976 cougar with a 400M. I have always thought the 400 was very underrated when it came to performance. Everyone knows you can put 4V Cleveland heads on it but the knock I always heard was the main journals were not small like the 351C. It has 2.75 in journals and the 400 has 3.00in. meaning more friction. The thing that always confused me is that both 400M and Windsor block have 3.000 in. main journals. The 351 W has become the darling of the Ford set. It is being stroked out to 427 and has gobs of horsepower. What’s the difference? Mine has been overbored.030 and is 408 inches by my calculations. Why is it always regarded as a truck engine suitable only for low-end torque?
Recently I have acquired a set of Australian heads for my engine. I also have a Weiand dual plane manifold and Edelbrock 750CFM Carb. I also have a Holley 600CFM. As you know, the Australian heads have standard (2V) ports and valves. I would very much like to optimize both performance and efficiency without spending a fortune. The most "bang for the buck" idea. Before doing too much, I have some questions.
I intend to port match the heads. I plan to use 1 7/8 headers with 2 1/4 Collectors. I also plan to use roller rockers with 1.7 ratio.
Should I:
1. Use 4V exhaust valves (1.71)?
2. Use 4V Intakes?
3. Use the stock Duraspark or an MSD type ignition?
4. Use a roller cam or dual hydraulic?
5. Polish the exhaust ports?
I have obviously gone to the wrong thread. I'll try again elsewhere.
You're obviously a Chevy guy, and you don't have a firmrunn141 said:
grip on math, right? So what is the bore and stroke of
the FE352??
I'll try to use small words so you'll understand, there
are no "big" or "small" block Fords, there designations
are by engine family, Windsors, 335s, 385s, FEs, FTs,
MELs and Modular for the families we are interested
in. Now for the hard part, the late (post '65)Windsors
and 335 series engines share a common bore size and
spacing, meaning you can use the heads from a 335 on
a Windsor block, and vise-versa after preforming a few
modifications...
Oh, and the 351M has a 3.50" stroke, the FE352 also has
a 3.50" stroke, its the 400 that has a 4" stroke...
K
There is no SMALL BLOCK/BIG BLOCK descriptions in FORD Corporate lingo gentleman. They are catagorized by Engine Families.
HUNH!runn141 said:
The 351M is a destroked 400 (notice no M). It was designed this way to replace the 351C for passenger car/light truck service.
For the FINAL TIME...
The W,C and M descriptions are meant to allow one to differentiate between the three engine series (actually two) with the same engine displacements. How the FE 352 got into this I will never know. It has no bearing on the discussion.
Please stick to your Ghetto Machines and stay away from a subject you have little obvious knowledge in.
This cannot be this confusing gentlemen...
Basically, the 400 was the same engine as a 351 cleveland, but with a one inch taller deck and larger main journals. Heads, cam, and pistons will interchange. The 351m is the same bore and stroke as a 351c, but in the taller decked (heavier) "400"block platform. This is what renders it a boat anchor. 351 clevelands are bigger than the 351 windsors, but most think the clevelands' head designs negate the windsors' weight advantage. If a person made a clevor with the new edelbrock aluminum cleveland heads, they would have a screamer on their hands. :evil:
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