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I need some advice.

2.8K views 14 replies 10 participants last post by  Double_v23  
#1 ·
I need some advice.

I built my first engine. A Chevy 350 bored 40 over large chambered heads with 202 160 valves. You know, all the normal things. I bought a Compcams 280 magnum kit (cam, double roler timing chane, roller rockers etc). I have never gotten the engine to work well. The timing has never been correct (I’ve tried everthing from 0 to 12 degrees with the vaccume advance plugged). The engine will either not start or it will kicks back or it will try to stay started.

Last week I bought a new Holley 670 street avenger; I hope the kick back has not damaged it. Talking about a complete change in an engine. Now it won’t idle, when reved up it does not want to idle down (probable a vaccume leak). I am about to pull my hair out. I am thinking of pulling the engine and starting over for the forth time.

I need help.
 
#2 · (Edited)
make sure the timing chain is lined up correctly,pull the #1 spark plug and rotate the engine to get it to top dead center of the compression stroke ,make sure you use get the piston all the way to the top don't go by the balancer cuz you may have put the crank gear advanced or retarded 4 degress and not straight up at zero.then pull the distributor cap and make sure the rotor points to the #1 wire.
when you say the engine wants to stay started,what do you mean?does it run on?
kick back?do you mean backfire threw the carb?
won't start?hard to turn over,or cranks but won't fire.
a little clearer explanation would be great.
as for the idle staying high make sure the carb has not bent the throttle plate a.k.a. butterflies and that they are closed and that the throttle is not hanging up.
 
#3 ·
Need some Advice

Thanks for the reply.

sorry, i did mean engine run-on. It will spit gas through the carb too.

I did not think about the adaptor I installed for the carb. I have decided to install a RPM manifold by Eldebrock. It should take the sticking possability out of the picture.

The HEI is old. I have a new Mallory dual poit tha I will install to see if it make a difference.

Afterwards I will make sure all is aligned.

By the way, do you have any idea as to what timing I should be set to? It is a 1969 Chevy 350 with 1974 heads and I installed a Compcam 280 magnum kit (DR timing chain, haudraulic lifters & rooler rockers).
 
#4 ·
Doc here, :pimp:

Start and warm the engine..

At Idle (or as close to it as you can get) place your vacuum gauge at any Manifold Vacuum source you have..

You should be pulling 17 to 21 In Hg , and STEADY...no rapid excursions on the needle..

If you get fluctuations.You have valve train problems..(over adjusted valve (s) ... warn lobe, Flat lifter, bent push rod, stripped rocker stud, Burned Valve, leaky Guides or seals)

If it is excessively high or low Vacuum But steady needle..you may have timing problems , either Dizzy or chain off..Or Leaks in the vacuum circuits.

Start there and see what the results bring forth..

Doc :pimp:
 
#7 ·
I need help with a timing issue

I need some advice.

I built my first engine. A Chevy 350 bored 40 over large chambered heads with 202 160 valves. You know, all the normal things. I bought a Compcams 280 magnum kit (cam, double roler timing chane, roller rockers etc). I have never gotten the engine to work well. The timing has never been correct (I’ve tried everthing from 0 to 12 degrees with the vaccume advance plugged). The engine will either not start or it will kicks back or it will try to stay started.

Last week I bought a new Holley 670 street avenger; I hope the kick back has not damaged it. Talking about a complete change in an engine. Now it won’t idle, when reved up it does not want to idle down (probable a vaccume leak). I am about to pull my hair out. I am thinking of pulling the engine and starting over for the forth time.

I need help.
 
#9 ·
Follow up

Thanks for all of the input. I have had computer and weather problems but would really like to continue this discussion if possible. It will probably be confusing but I will try to clarify. Please ask questions.

I have had this engine set up for about 15 years. i put at least 30000 mile on it. I drove it back and forth on the weekend from school which was about 90 miles away. I let the car sit for 10 years and am trying to get it back into shape. I have always since day one had a timing issue. It seem to only start and stop correctly at 6 degrees BTDC until now. I have never found what initial timing is best for my engine set up. I was using a 1970 LT1 spec sheet because I was trying to mimic the engine.

The story starts like this:
My 600 cfs vacuum secondary never worked (I went through 12 carbs in 1 year but that is another story) until last year. I don't know what happened but all of a sudden it found at least another 100 HP with the same carb. The four barrel started working. Soon after it started leaking from one of the blanked off spots where a driver side gas connection would be made. Holly tech said use JB weld but I needed something fast so I bought Holly number 13 which is a 670 Street Avenger. I hope it is not too big. Since my last post, I replaced the intake and evidently I have had vacuum issue all along. Now instead of a choppy idle like what I thought a muscle car should sound like it sounds like a race car.

For clarification, I had a mechanic friend of mine install the timing chain. I can not be certain if it is correct without rebuilding it for the 4th time but he is an old school 1/8 mile drag racer so I trust him over me. I have left out a lot of info. Please ask if you are confused or just curious.

Let's jump to today.
1969 350 ci 4 bolt main bored 40 over.
1975 76cc chambered head that according to Hot Rod magazine were the ones to have on a budget and will run on pup gas. The heads were shaved twice. I don't remember how much material was removed. I am remembering 10 thousandth but that may be wrong. I installed thicker Mr. Gasket head gaskets with copper seals.

COMPETITION CAMS PART NUMBER: 12-212-2
ENGINE: CS 280H-10
GRIND #: CS 280H-10
INT EXH
VALVE ADJUSTMENT HYD HYD
GROSS VALVE LIFT: .480 .480
DURATION AT
.006 TAPPET LIFT 280 280
VALVE TIMING OPEN CLOSE
AT .006 INT 34 66
EXH 74 26

THESE SPECS ARE FOR CAM INSTALLED
@ 106.0 INT C/L
INT EXH

DUR @.050: 231 231
LOBE LIFT: .3200 .3200
LOBE SEPARATION: 110.0
RECOMMENDED CC VALVE SPRINGS: 981-16

Comp cam roller rockers and timing chain was in the kit.
Eldebrock RPM high rise intake.

Wimpy 270:1 rear end but it got good gas millage on my trip back and forth to school.

I don't know what spark plug to use. I have tried different one over the years.

I have HEI non-modified distributor salvaged from somewhere long ago.
8mm wires.

I am not sure what more to add. Please read and ask question.

Thank you in advance for your help.
 
#12 ·
LDA007 said:
Thanks for all of the input. I have had computer and weather problems but would really like to continue this discussion if possible. It will probably be confusing but I will try to clarify. Please ask questions.

I have had this engine set up for about 15 years. i put at least 30000 mile on it. I drove it back and forth on the weekend from school which was about 90 miles away. I let the car sit for 10 years and am trying to get it back into shape. I have always since day one had a timing issue. It seem to only start and stop correctly at 6 degrees BTDC until now. I have never found what initial timing is best for my engine set up. I was using a 1970 LT1 spec sheet because I was trying to mimic the engine.

The story starts like this:
My 600 cfs vacuum secondary never worked (I went through 12 carbs in 1 year but that is another story) until last year. I don't know what happened but all of a sudden it found at least another 100 HP with the same carb. The four barrel started working. Soon after it started leaking from one of the blanked off spots where a driver side gas connection would be made. Holly tech said use JB weld but I needed something fast so I bought Holly number 13 which is a 670 Street Avenger. I hope it is not too big. Since my last post, I replaced the intake and evidently I have had vacuum issue all along. Now instead of a choppy idle like what I thought a muscle car should sound like it sounds like a race car.

For clarification, I had a mechanic friend of mine install the timing chain. I can not be certain if it is correct without rebuilding it for the 4th time but he is an old school 1/8 mile drag racer so I trust him over me. I have left out a lot of info. Please ask if you are confused or just curious.

Let's jump to today.
1969 350 ci 4 bolt main bored 40 over.
1975 76cc chambered head that according to Hot Rod magazine were the ones to have on a budget and will run on pup gas. The heads were shaved twice. I don't remember how much material was removed. I am remembering 10 thousandth but that may be wrong. I installed thicker Mr. Gasket head gaskets with copper seals.

COMPETITION CAMS PART NUMBER: 12-212-2
ENGINE: CS 280H-10
GRIND #: CS 280H-10
INT EXH
VALVE ADJUSTMENT HYD HYD
GROSS VALVE LIFT: .480 .480
DURATION AT
.006 TAPPET LIFT 280 280
VALVE TIMING OPEN CLOSE
AT .006 INT 34 66
EXH 74 26

THESE SPECS ARE FOR CAM INSTALLED
@ 106.0 INT C/L
INT EXH

DUR @.050: 231 231
LOBE LIFT: .3200 .3200
LOBE SEPARATION: 110.0
RECOMMENDED CC VALVE SPRINGS: 981-16

Comp cam roller rockers and timing chain was in the kit.
Eldebrock RPM high rise intake.

Wimpy 270:1 rear end but it got good gas millage on my trip back and forth to school.

I don't know what spark plug to use. I have tried different one over the years.

I have HEI non-modified distributor salvaged from somewhere long ago.
8mm wires.

I am not sure what more to add. Please read and ask question.
)
Thank you in advance for your help.
Ya know, or maybe not, the Navy did a study comparing the failure rate of things in the warehouse to the same thing in use and discovered that they age at about the same rate whether you use them or not.

But lets start with the cam, generally the more aggressive the cam the harder it is to set up the engine, the harder it is to keep it (the engine) set up. The comp 280 is a pretty rasty piece and demands that not only it be spot on but everything else as well.

Compression, unless you're running flat topped or even a domed piston, there is no way this engine has enough compression for this cam timing with open chamber heads regardless of what Hot Rod has to say.

12 carbs in one year on one engine is quite a story, I'm sure you should share it as the story may let the rest of us in on what's going on with the engine. The likely hood of hitting 12 bad carbs is a row is statistically damn small.

Setting up the cam; parts get miss-marked and people make mistakes. Engine assemblers buy parts and bolt them on, engine builders don't assume the parts they have are correct. They put 'em on, take measurements, and take off and look again before things get bolted together in final fashion. This takes time and usually eats more than one gasket set.

The previous paragraph probably establishes where you need to start. Since the engine never ran right to begin with, the chances of something fundamental like the timing of the camshaft to piston position is probably incorrect. Or the cam was damaged right after start up and is now missing lobes. It needs to be looked at and that means it has to come out.

When it goes back, you need a new timing set gears and chain, 30,000 miles with an aggressive cam is actually quite a bit. The increased spring tension demanded by an aggressive cam and faster accelerations of the valve system is pretty hard on the cam's drive mechanism, especailly when used on the street with 2.70 gears. The engine is never spun very fast, this makes for long shaky moments being introduced to the cam where it's snapping back and forth against the chain as lifters ramping up want to slow rotation and lifters ramping down want to speed rotation. So the timing gears and chain take quite a beating. Higher RPMs doesn't eliminate this but eventually the revs reach a point where the parts don't have time to respond to the vibrations. Then other nasty things happen but the effects of this one diminish.

Then there is the problem of having a known good carb and distributor. It's a lot better than adding them to the assumptions about and issues within the motor.

There's some good books about engine blue printing out there here's one; http://sabooks.carshopinc.com/product_info.php/products_id/46848/21
pick up a copy and follow it through your engine.

Bogie
 
#13 ·
Valve springs will weaken over time when not being ran. If the engine was not started for very long periods of time in the last 10 years they could be weak and not closing the valves quick enough. Try holding 280 pounds above your head for 1 year and see how weak you get. Also the valve guides will be varnished and dry increasing the load on the springs.
 
#15 ·
I was thinking the same thing about the cam, I believe that you had trouble tuning it because it was too much cam for the very mild engine. Then you compiled the problem by putting that 670 carb on.

I think a cam swap is in order, and reinstall a carb that is smaller. To run aggressive cams effectively you need higher compression, lower than stock gears, and possibly a bigger stall converter. I don't believe you have any of that.

I would remove the carb, intake, distributor, camshaft, lifters, and timing set and start again. This can most like be done in the car with some removal of additional parts. I am sure you know more now than you did back then so give it one more shot!!!