[78novaman]

Good thinking by removing the fuse and checking again for the voltage at the solenoid. Since you didn't see any voltage with the fuses out, I think we can indeed rule out the solenoid. Shucks...all the signs were pointing that way too. On the bright side we've ruled out another possibility! Now we just have to focus on where your wiring is shorted to give you feedback from the always live feed. I'll do some thinking and try to come up with a way to troubleshoot this feedback.


As for the excess drop in voltage, with that much drain on the battery, you may have deep cycled it by now and you are just seeing the surface charge until you hit the key and find out your battery is dead. Easy way to check is to turn the lights on and see if the voltage drops by a lot too.

 

[NXS]

If the coil wire is always hot even with the ignition switch unplugged {the one on the colum, not the key & tumbler} you probably need to rewire it.

If an always hot wire melts and crosses with a hot with key on wire it is time to rewire, and I think that's what happened.

 

[rapsag]

Update

Thanks for the input. Progress this afternoon. With the ignition fuse removed and the guage lead removed from the adjacent spade lug, I noted that the oil pressure guage was reading zero (not below zero as is usual) and that the gas guage was also on still even tho the volt meter and temp guage appeared off. Also some warmth noted on the faces of the guages. So I got upside down under the dash and what a mess. I found that there was a long multi screw terminal bar way up out of the way with 5 or 6 hot terminals and 5 or six not hot terminals (maybe just grounds, or may be hot with key turned on). There was a hot lead from that terminal that went to a black plastic 4 pronged "30 amp" device which I assume is a fuse or breaker fuse. One lead was for the hot lead in, one for ground, and the third was hot out, and the other was not hot (but was a 12 guage red wire). Of the two out leads the hot one went to the guages I mentioned above. The cold one went to the A/C fan switch and thermistat (which have been dead since this thing started). I removed the hot in lead and will remove the 30 amp device and check it out. Since the leads coming off this terminal bar are hot and going to devices that should be keyed, there is the possiblility that the terminal bar is supposed to be keyed on and that this is close to our shorted wiring. However, the fog lights are directly wired to this bar with a separate fuse, so I am not sure.
Now if that all is not confusing enough, there is a 'start' button on the engine side of the firewall, that I have not used before. But I noticed that it was also hot to touch, so I unplugged it. It was powered by a hot terminal next to it with several other wires on the same terminal. Will leave it off, as it is not needed for now. Next I am going to find out if the extraneous voltage is still present when the ignition fuse is in place again. If not I will be encouraged. But if still hot will consider a total rewire of the engine, and dash if I can find a good harness set and figure out how to go about it.
Any suggestions appreciated. rap

 

[trees]

Rap, I read this quickly and did not digest every thing. I do know that Vintage Air systems have an in line fuse (I think it is 30 amps) in the red power wire, which normally connects to a battery voltage source. That fuse is probably blown and you need to find out why. From all the wiring rats nest you have described, that will not be easy. You don't want to hear this in that good old !00+ Okie weather, but you would be way ahead by removing all the wiring (less Vintage Air) , get a Painless, E-Z, Haywire, Ron Francis or what ever wiring kit and start over. Your ignition switch/wiring circuit is suspect along with your gage wiring.

Trees

 

[rapsag]

progress

Trees, Nice to hear from you. Here's what happened. I removed the hot lead to the 30 amp device. (looks more like a relay to take the high voltage off the fan switch). The hot lead coming out of the 30 amp thing was followed to where it was spliced in with another lead from somewhere else. The other lead to the a/c fan and thermo switch was not hot coming out of the 30 amp thing. Soo I just pulled the the power lead from the 30 amp thing and HOORAY!. The backfeed voltage is gone! I put the fuse back in at the box for ignition etc and no guage activity, no voltage at the coil and no voltage at the solonoid small terminal. When I turn the switch to 'run' the guages come on as expected, there is voltage of 8 volts at the coil and 8 volts at the solonoid small terminal, and NADA when I turn to start, except the voltmeter does not budge and the temp guage goes full to the right until I back off. No click is heard at the solonoid. My battery is a new Optima and has had the smart charger on it since all this happened so as not to run down (I disconnect for all the testing above). It is hold strong charge inspite of my tries at starting.
I have two questions;
1. Why is the voltage at the coil and solonoid only 8 volts??? when in "run" position at the switch.?
2. Could I have fried the solonoid during that long period when it had continued voltage on it before I decided to remove the ignition fuse and the coil leads? Or is 8 volts just not enough to trigger the solonoid, starter? My battery is at 13.5 volts and holding that well.

Will sleep on it. Tomorrow start with removing the 30 amp thing and having it tested,(will call Vintage Air also and ask their tech, and request another 30 amp thing-I think it is a fused relay, and may control both hot and keyed voltages, which might explain the whole mess).
Then will remove the starter and solonoid and have them tested, as I suspect the solonoid is now dead.

Your comments are appreciated please don't sign out yet, as we are going to beat this thing soon. Your advice about getting reharnessed sounds scary but probably would be easier than wading through all the trash under my dash. If I don't get things back to snuff in the next day or so will order up a new harness. Will need one that has everything labled for us non-electricians. Tomorrow will shed new light. rap

 

[78novaman]

Holy cow things really sound like a mess the way you describe them. Your best bet is to go ahead and re-wire. A painless kit isn't that expensive and will ensure everything will work properly. With the way your car is wired now it's sounding more like a fire hazard than anything else.

 

[killerformula]

sounds like you're sharing a few grounds given that your dash operation is screwy. I would assume you're getting 8 volts because of a weak ground in your ignition, and one of the only close grounds is in your dash, which is why your temp gauge would peg. First place I would look is in the column. Start with the 12v constant power wire and work your way forward from there.

.02-

K

 

[rapsag]

Weak ground makes sense, as there is a lot grounding to metal suspension straps (i.e. there is one holding up the back end of the radio.) There is adequate adjacent steel body frame he could have used. Also in addition to the always hot power bar,(six terminals), there is an adjacent bar for grounding. Will check it out. I am less likely to rewire after much thought since this is a big 17 foot long car and he did a very nice job everywhere else such as routing, and looming everything. I have no complaints about the engine wiring either. Sooo- will pull down all the nylon ties, remove the a/c ducts that are in the way and slowly work out each circuit as you advised.

Which is the 'ignition' plug and which is the always hot plug to the column?
rap

 

[rapsag]

I forgot to say there is a lot of unused (and long, rolled up) wire leads etc that I plan to remove, as I don't plan to add any more stuff to this car. Also some redundant wire that is in use but much too long and so is folded up, like speaker wires and such that I will shorten (will hot solder). Will also solder all of the crimped wire connections that I see.

 

[rapsag]

That was it!

Before taking the relay out, I found the ignition 'on' side to be on with the key off. Then I disconnected the battery lead in and the ignition 'on' lead went dead. Then I turned the key to 'run' and the ignigion on lead came back on. Then it was simple. I just took the darn thing out and sure enough it was fried inside with the battery lead contacting the windings of the electromagnet, and the power out spade not able to make contact.
In summary, the relay failed and shorted to the ignition input lead, causing feedback when the key was off and thus letting the guages stay on and motor run with the key off. This matches perfectly the events that occurred. However, I still have the decreased voltage out on the ignition side and will begin systematic grounding to the multilead ground bar that I found. I am hoping when full voltage is restored that the solonoid will then respond. Otherwise will need to check that area out. I may replace the coil as well just for grins.
Will keep you informed. But I am happy with the progress. I spoke with Vintage Air and they are sending me the relay. rap

 

[78novaman]

Makes perfect sense! Amazing how much easier it is to compare the symptoms to the problem once you know what the problem is!

Sorry I wasn't as much help as I had hoped. I figured a short, but not knowing the specifics of how your Vintage Air system worked the solenoid or a melted fuse/distribution box was all I could think of. I'm glad you found your problem though!

 

[rapsag]

Thank for your advice anyhow because it gave me new info that is now useful. Meanwhile I still have no action at the starter. Battery full charged, and I am getting 12 volts at all guages, and hot sources under the dash. However, I have only about 7 to 8 volts at the coil and solonoid small terminal with the ignition on. I have looked high and low for poor grounding but all appears tight. I have three questions:
1. What is the voltage supposed to be on the high side of the coil with the ignition in 'run' position, and also at the solonoid small terminal?
2. If it is supposed to be 12 volts, then where in the hell am I losing it???
3. Is it possible that the solonoid won't kick with the lowered voltage? It does not budge. Any advice appreciated. rap

 

[rapsag]

7 volts is ok!

Answered my own question. The voltage drops from the ignition switch to the coil because it is a resistance wire. So I'm ok there. So the problem is probably with the starter solonoid. Will remove and check both the 'noid and the starter tomorrow. Things are looking up! Of course I probably need to wire the a/c differently so as not to burn out a relay again. At least next time it will be an easy fix. Will try to wrap all up by the end of this week. Check out my pics on my first "hello" note. It is a stout car.. rap.

 

[rapsag]

Am I screwed?

I pulled the starter and solonoid and had the unit tested. Both worked like a champ. Wish I had checked the voltage (if any) on the S terminal while someone was holding the switch on start, as I could have saved myself the labor on the starter. Suspect that I have a bad wire between the start switch and the 'S' terminal on the solonoid. At this point I am tempted to rewire the car. What do you readers think?

 

[Kurt]

Sorry I'm having trouble focusing here so I might be way off, but are the wires on your starter hooked to the correct terminals. Test for power in the start wire, if it's dead it could be a neutral safety or some thing as silly as having the shifter in the wrong position. I only bring that up because my tech panicked yesterday when a car would'nt turn over, turned out he had the car in reverse. Sounds like you've had your share of fun on this one.

 

[rapsag]

Starter was connected properly. Start wire is supposed to be dead until you switch to 'start' and then goes off as soon as you release. Mine was dead on 'off', 'acc', 'run'. But I did not have someone to help me check it for voltage with the switch pushed to 'start'. I was not suspecting that kind of problem and thought the solonoid was the problem. My mistake. I was in the process of getting ready to put the starter back in , hook up all the wires and then check for the 12 volts at both the switch plug, and the 's' terminal of the starter when the switch turn to 'start', as that will confirm continuity and power. But as I was looking at the plastic loom carrying the wires to the starter, it appeared melted at the area where it goes by the exhaust manifold so I have been trying to get cooked plastic off the wires to inspect them. I was not surprised to find some of the wires cooked. But the one to the 's' terminal seems intact. I have peeled off plastic and electrical tape for about 6-8 inches now. Two of the wires pass through 3/8 inch round plastic spacers which I assumed were to keep them away from each other in the heated area. However, the wire is different on each side, with the exit wire being more flexible and smaller diameter. I hope these are not some sort of resistors, because I plan to cut the burnt wires off and set up a solonoid on the metal firewall topside and then use the starter solonoid as a slave. That way will only have to send one wire to the large terminal of the original solonoid and make a connector from there to the 's' terminal. That way I can get rid of the fried wire ends and also have the wires all away from the exhaust manifold (except for one which I will rerout carefully). If I can get all that done and rehook everything and find that there is a break in the Igintion wire from the switch to the starter, then I will replace it separately and hope that fixes all. Rewiring this monster would otherwise be a nightmare, since most of the peripheral stuff is just fine and buried away in the chassis, loomed, coated and sealed. I think the above plan tho tedious will solve it. All comments appreciated, and feel free to contradict (I am not electronically endowed). rap

 

[rapsag]

Update

The round things in the wires are fusible links, silly to be where they are as not fixable without splicing into the wire. They will go with the surgery anyhow. Have gotten a Ford type solonoid to place on the firewall, and will do the surgery in the am. It will be 59 degrees in the am (was 68 today). Too good to be true in July in Oklahoma. rap

 

[NXS]

Going to the midnights? I might be there

 

[rapsag]

Neutral Safety

Kurt, The builder of this car did not use the neutral safety lead on the shifter. He used the wires and made a toggle switch on the dash. It acts as an anti theft device. When off the car will not start, so you have to flip it up before you hit the starter. You can then flip it off after the engine is started. Of course that means you could start the car in any gear as well, but being careful is all that is required.
Will report today's progress this pm.

 

[rapsag]

Good things come from mistakes

It seems that when I first put the new switch in before checking a/c relay (da!), I did not get it adjusted correctly (even tho I taped the actuation rod to the column so it would not move while I made the change), just a couple of milimeters further away from the key. Since there is a couple mm. of extra space in the slot on the switch, it did not quite make it to the start circuit. Thus it would not start as it did before. Meanwhile I finally checked out the a/c and found the fried relay with the backfeed into the ignition system with the key off. Disconnected that but was still stuck with no starting. If I had not made the switch error, I would not have inspected the wiring at the solonoid and found all the damage from the exhaust. Serendipity rules! I have since spliced and rewired the solonoid, rerouted the wire harness away from the manifold and then did my circuit evaluation and wiring anatomy exam. Used an ohmeter to check continuity over both the power wire, ignition wire, the switch itself, and then all of them hooked up (with battery still disconnected). I discovered the switch position problem when I could not get continuity with the plugs attached. Sooo it had to be the switch position since the switch was ok. I moved it forward about 2 mm, and bingo! Continuity from the end of the power wire to the end of the ignition start wire. So it will crank when I hook it up again!!! (fingers crossed of course and a little prayer)
Next, I received a complete harness set from Vintage Air to replace the marginal wiring. This one has a 30 amp inline circuit breaker fuse in the power source line, two relays, one for the fan motor and one for the compressor. That should protect the system in the future. Will try to make the hookup neat, clean up the redundant wiring (or hang it up out of the way) and get the darn thing done.