lack of zinc killed it. The gov forced oil companies to remove zinc and other anti wear agents from oil. So flat tappet cams go flat very quickly in the break in procedure. Diesel oil was suggested to you on other threads, but it likely wouldn`t have did you any good either, they removed the package from it too. One of the few things left that still has it is STP oil treatment. GM had a additive that worked the same way, it too has been discontinued. I`m sure Lunati will cover your loss this time, but likely won`t a second time. You will also have to check the bearings, the hardened steel of the lifter and cast iron likely ruined the bearings. They will all have to be checked for clearance, don`t just inspect them. If they measure okay the engine will have be flushed very very well to get it clean.

 

That doesn't look like a wear induced failure, looks more like the hard face of the lifter sheared off. Was this a high lift long duration cam?? Cams with faster lift rates put far more side load on the lifters, resulting in a shearing force as the edge of the lifter tries to climb the cam lobe. High pressure springs only worsen the problem. I'd be real surprised if the lifter bore isn't broken also.
Shouldn't be much other damage, It looks to me like the lifter sheared off in one piece and probably just dropped to the bottom of the pan. There will be some particles that wore off the cam however.

I'm in the group that will likely never build a flat tappet engine again, especially with a larger than stock cam. Yes, rollers are expensive, but what did this episode just cost in time and $$$$????


BTW, how come the lifters look like they're rusty???

 

BTW, how come the lifters look like they're rusty???

Looks to me like assembly lube. Red/Brown....sometimes hard to tell the difference.

 

lifters

Give a little bit more info on the combo.. what are the lift and duration @.050 numbers on the cam. Solid or hyd.What heads. I assume it a chevy 350??? How did you initially set the valves??? Did you soak the lifters in oil???

Keith

 

Give a little bit more info on the combo.. what are the lift and duration @.050 numbers on the cam. Solid or hyd.What heads. I assume it a chevy 350??? How did you initially set the valves??? Did you soak the lifters in oil???

Keith

( It is not making much difference, what size, shape, lift, the non-roller cams are going flat at a terrible rate.) I did here a suggestion. Joe Gibbs Racing, is suppose to have a racing oil, that is loaded with zinc. It is a thought?????
Dave Tallant Hot Rods Shop KC Mo.

 

From the looks of the bad lifter, it looks like a piece of the bottom of the lifter broke off.

After a very solid investigation, I came to the same conclusion......

 

cams

I don't really think percentage wise that the rate is much different then 10 years ago. Now we have the internet and everytime a cam goes flat the entire world knows about it..

There was a period a few years back where a bunch of bad lifters got out and that added to the amout of failures.

I personally do not know of one stock cam failure where proper break-in procedures were used. A place like Recon builds 1000's of stock engines with no problems,with stock cams.

IMO, (others feel free to jump in ) all the problems (lack of zinc, spring pressure, lobe rates, lifter bore location/perpendicularity, lifter crown, cam and lifter hardness,etc) are greatly increased as the cam gets more aggressive...As the lobe gets faster the need to pay attention to all the above increases....

If you have a cam with 270@ .050 duration and the lifter bores are out of location/perpendicularity you can add zinc to the cows come home and every cam that goes in that block will go flat. Put a stock cam in the same block with zero zinc and the thing will run forever...

It's not always the cams fault. That is why i asked the questions.

Keith

 

Specs

The cam is Lun pn# 60103, it is a Voodoo cam .489 in .504 ex. Duration at tappet .050 is 227 in and 233 ex. We bought cam, lifters and springs kit! Just spoke with Lunati, they want to see a picture of the missing part before we go any further. I told him that I am going to pull the engine and take it all back apart again and look for the missing pieces but isn't it possible that the pieces got ground up by the cam? He said maybe, gave me his extension number and said to call him back when I get it apart. Called Jegs ask for manager! After asking if I had a receipt he said that they sell hundreds of cams and that I am the only one to have this problem! My guess is he thinks we did something wrong. I had to interrupt his speech 2 or 3 times to explain that the lifter looks like a metal rod with the end broken off. He said that was not possible. Then he asked for my name so he could look it up on the computer. After 10 minutes he said well I have no record of you buying it from us and said if you can find a receipt to call him back. I then remembered that my son picked it up. Called Jegs back and got a different manager. He found the sell on his computer (they had my name mis spelled) and said call me back after you get it all apart and we will make good on it.

Now I have a question for you all. I have changed 6 or 7 flat tappet cams over my life and never had a problem. The last thing I want is to have this happen again. So, would this be a good time to go to a roller setup? With the springs and heads I have I am limited to around .525 lift. I am thinking I can return cam and pay the difference to go roller. Then again if I find that the bearings and other things are damaged because of this, I am not gonna be a very happy person.

 

The cam is Lun pn# 60103, it is a Voodoo cam .489 in .504 ex. Duration at tappet .050 is 227 in and 233 ex. We bought cam, lifters and springs kit! Just spoke with Lunati, they want to see a picture of the missing part before we go any further. I told him that I am going to pull the engine and take it all back apart again and look for the missing pieces but isn't it possible that the pieces got ground up by the cam? He said maybe, gave me his extension number and said to call him back when I get it apart. Called Jegs ask for manager! After asking if I had a receipt he said that they sell hundreds of cams and that I am the only one to have this problem! My guess is he thinks we did something wrong. I had to interrupt his speech 2 or 3 times to explain that the lifter looks like a metal rod with the end broken off. He said that was not possible. Then he asked for my name so he could look it up on the computer. After 10 minutes he said well I have no record of you buying it from us and said if you can find a receipt to call him back. I then remembered that my son picked it up. Called Jegs back and got a different manager. He found the sell on his computer (they had my name mis spelled) and said call me back after you get it all apart and we will make good on it.

Now I have a question for you all. I have changed 6 or 7 flat tappet cams over my life and never had a problem. The last thing I want is to have this happen again. So, would this be a good time to go to a roller setup? With the springs and heads I have I am limited to around .525 lift. I am thinking I can return cam and pay the difference to go roller. Then again if I find that the bearings and other things are damaged because of this, I am not gonna be a very happy person.

Looking at the picture from what I can tell it looks like a stress fracture within the hardened zone of the lifter face, this would be caused by incorrect/inadequate/careless treatment of the hardened wearing surface. These are not unheard of failures, perhaps uncommon, but not unique. I'd say the failure had nothing to do with your installation or the type of lubrication employed, there was a residual shear plane that formed in the lifter face upon manufacture that when put into service the forces were simply large enough to allow a chip to come off. This, also, could have resulted from the lifter being dropped at some point and a "flake" formed from the pressure in a manner similar to how pressure applied to a piece of flint rock is used to chip off flakes to make a stone arrow or spear point.

Bogie

 

More...

Just go off the phone with a friend who is a tool and die maker. Sent him the lifter pictures. He says, to him, it looks like there was an air pocket or air bubble in the casting. Sounding more and more like a defective lifter.

 

I use white lithium grease and stp mixed together as a cam lube. also build oil pressure with a drill before i start eng. if the eng turns ovr alot trying to start it will wipe the lobes clean of lubricant. in your case it looks like material failure

 

lifter

I have my doubts that you will find a "piece" of lifter. That lifter looks like standard issue failure. You will probably find debris through the filter,oil and bearings....If it's only one bad lifter you might get blessed and not have any bearing damage.

Cams are case hardened to 55 rc. If you start the engine and the lifter does not rotate it will go right through the case hardness and cause the exact look that you have on the bottom of the lifter.

If you could somehow do a survey i would bet that 70 to 80 percent of cam failures are with cams right in the same number range as yours... Maybe because they sell 50 of them to every 1 thats more aggressive.

IMO there could be a few causes. Like was mentioned earlyer if you did not add any EOS or other zinc rich additive. Could be that the lifter did not have the proper crown on it but it's way to late to check that. I check every single lifter that i install. They should be right around .002" crown. There for awhile i would throw away 1 to 3 lifters out of every set because they had less then .001 crown. With that cam i would not put any lifter in it with less then .002 crown, but that me.

You are going to need to take the engine apart and clean it.If there is any debris in the oil galleys, that instant death to the next cam you install...not to mention that the bearings will be junk in 1,000 miles or less..

Get a indicator and check the next set of lifters for crown, go to GM and pick up a bottle of EOS and also a bottle of cam and lifter lube. Use the EOS on break-in and the cam and lifter lube every time you change the oil.

You should be ok for the next time,,,or go roller and the issues go away..

Keith

 

Both those lifters are trashed due to something going wrong on break-in. I don't suspect a lifter manufacturing issue at all, based on the condition of both those lifters, one with the face torn off of it and one with a very worn face. Both indications the lifters were not spinning. Would be interesting to see a pic of all the lifter faces side by side.

30W oil is a no no, it's SM rated and not suitable for breaking in a flat tappet camshaft. We use non synthetic 20/50 NAPA with a bottle of EOS or Crane break in oil, which is 15% zinc. 20/50 is also SM rated but has a higher zinc content versus 30w oils. If springs are double springs you need to break it in with the inners out of it, otherwise use short ratio break in rockers. Expensive option if you don't do this every day. We break in multiple engines weekly on the dyno and that's our preferred method to lessen pressure on the cam and lifter mating surface.


I think:

A) you are a victim of the crap oil additive package
and/or
B) your spring pressure is too high for break-in.

 

Jmark, there is a ton of up to date info on the current ZDDP levels in oil on Bobistheoilguy website. None of it good relative to ZDDP versus pre SM ratings unless you move into the racing oils.

Keith, unless the GM dealer is a slow parts counter location it's likely they will be out of EOS. No more being manufacturered. We have a couple of cases left but have started to stock up on the Crane lube, hoping that it does the job as well. No reason as of yet to think it won't.

I think we typed our last posts at the same time under the same rays of light.

 

I've seen plenty of lifter/cam failures over the years and this one has the oddest look I have ever seen. If I were to guess I would say something fell into the engine and was caught between the lobe and lifter. That's the only reason I can think of a big divet being removed from it. I have seen lobes go square and the lifters never looked this bad. If it came with inner and outer springs, did you break it in with just the outers?? That has been the cam makers recommendations for the past several years. After break in you are supposed to install the inners. If it is a cam/lifter failure, I'd be surprised. I have seen,literally, thousands of different types of engine failures over the last 40 years and it looks like a failure from an errant ...nut,washer...something. I will watch to see what the cam maker says, although I would venture that they will want to examine both the cam and lifter in person prior to any warranty.
After re-exmining the pictures I have more questions than answers...How come the lifter base is stained as if it has been in an engine a long time?? I pull engines down every week and unless they have some miles on them the lifters don't achieve that type of staining. If I was to examine them, my first impression would be that these lifters are waaaay beyond an initial break in. What is break in 20-30 minutes at over 2500rpm?? Can't imagine the lifters staining that much in such a short period.

 

cam

Man woodz428 if i seen 25 engine failures per year for the last 40 years i would quit building them....

I have no where near that much experience with broken engines but in the few cam/lifter failures i have seen they all are crazy looking and always a bit different. I don't take pictures of them but i guess i should have to compare with a lifter like this..

I am not saying something didn't get into the engine, but i would believe it only if he can produce something... I guess we need to wait and see if he takes the cam out and there are any other flat lobes or just this one, and also damage to other internal engine parts from what ever splashed through it....

Keith

 

Ah, I see what you're saying. I know the majors are working with new add pacs, antimony and more moly IIRC, but as of now I agree. This new SM oil is basically a killer for flat tappets on break in. Especially when spring pressures get up there.

Yup, syn is a big no no and the add pac on syn SM oil is just as pee poor as standard oil.

 

I have been hearing a lot about the oil used for break in, but how about using "break in " rocker arms? Speedway sells a set of 1.2 rockers designed for the new cam break in period. They would lower the spring pressure generated by a high lift, long duration cam and would likely say goodbye to faliure if used properly........

When I rebuild my engine this winter, I'm gonna use a set.

 

You didn't read one of my first posts on that subject? Yes, it's the easiest way for us to do break ins with flat tappet cams. We use various sets of Crowers for break-in. Using these break-in rockers does not void the need for the correct oil and break-in additives.

 

Looks like a typical low zinc, heavy spring, aggressive lobe lift, cam failure to me.

Take the engine completely apart. clean it out with soap and water. check all the bearings.

Don't use the latest CompCam xtreme cam or a voodoo cam. Get an old school compcam 270H or 280H because the ramps are softer and are much less likely to go flat. And use diesel engine oil for the break in and from now on. Not the "new formulated" diesel engine oil but the old style diesel engine oil (Rotella-T with the blue label, not the yellow and blue label). And break in with only the outside spring.

 

Man woodz428 if i seen 25 engine failures per year for the last 40 years i would quit building them....

Keith

If they were ones I had built, I would have. They were and still are engines brought to me to correct after someone else had "built/bilked" them. I also am called on regularly for failure analysis. When you work a machine shop/motorcycle shop/and exotic car shop as well as snowmobiles/jet skis, you get to see a lot of failures...of ALL kinds. Just the analysis is an education. You'd be surprised what you can learn from analyzing someone's engine failure, or any part failure for that matter. Also being in a Service Manager Position for many of those years I was the one diagnosing and analyzing the work of 6-12 people depending on the season.

 

hi, in looking at the lifters, there is verticl scuffing on the trashed lifter,no rotation? it does look like something hit the lifter thats pictured on the right, there are two seperate indents in the face, look real close and you will see them. is this engine a 383? could the rod bolt have hit the cam lobe? sam-missle

 

You didn't read one of my first posts on that subject? Yes, it's the easiest way for us to do break ins with flat tappet cams. We use various sets of Crowers for break-in. Using these break-in rockers does not void the need for the correct oil and break-in additives.

D'oh..........

I was skimming through, and I didn't see everything you posted, my bad. I wasn't saying not to use the proper break in oil, just that using the break in rockers might have helped in his case. This is the kind of thing that scares me, as I am looking to do a top end rebuild of my 350 this fall/winter. I have never done anything like that before, and hearing all the horror stories of wiping out the cam and lifter failure make me have sleepless nights...............

 

D'oh..........

I was skimming through, and I didn't see everything you posted, my bad. I wasn't saying not to use the proper break in oil, just that using the break in rockers might have helped in his case. This is the kind of thing that scares me, as I am looking to do a top end rebuild of my 350 this fall/winter. I have never done anything like that before, and hearing all the horror stories of wiping out the cam and lifter failure make me have sleepless nights...............

I was just giving you a bit of sheet is all.

I really don't see the potential of a piece of metal coming in contact with the cam and lifter. My sense is there would be a VERY non passive end of life on the camshaft, like it coming out in two pieces. If that would have happened the engine would have died. Again, I think the key in the diagnosis is the inspection of all the lifters as the second one in the pic looks to have been close to being obliterated as well.

 

Some good points Keith. One thing the original post mentions is that he used the supplied assembly cam lube. If it's anything like the goo Crane and Comp use, I'm sure lube failure is not very likely.

Im still holding out on a lifter failure. I still think there is a big chunk or two in the pan!

Just a thought on the "high zinc racing oils". I'm wondering how true the claims really are. The feds have a tight hold on production of these products and I don't see how one lone supplier can get by with putting out a product that is not in compliance with federal mandates.


The problem with the ZDDP levels is there is NO real current info out there. The older reports are from 5 or 6 years back and i'm sure the formulations are changing on a regular basis.

Mark


Mark

The latest info, "Product Information" on Valvoline web site for VR-1, is dated 5-23-06. Not 5 or 6 years ago.