Nightfire, in the electrical forum poncho62 has posted info about Points and HEI. http://www.hotrodders.com/t44185.html check that.

 

Thanks oldschool, just started reading it:sweat:

Mike

 

Good luck, personally I have a points system on my truck and I dont have a problem with it, it just requires some maintence, hei is pretty much maintence free.

 

There are no "pros" to a points ignition system, they totaly SUCK!

 

Like I said I dont see what's so bad about them, there simple enough, all you gota do is change the points once in a while. But I guess I can see where it would be lacking for a performance application.

 

can you back that statement up with proof or logical and physically correct data or is it just a general statement like you saying Ford sucks if you're really only saying it cause your a GM guy (hypothetically speeking)?

Mike

 

No it is not opinion, it is fact.

Let me try to explain in my drunken state.

HEI (High Energy Ignition) Was introducted by GM in the early-mid 70's to replace the POS low volatge points ignition, especially fo remissions reasons. Points style ignition relies on a set of "points", or called breaker points the are being constatly worn down by normal use as they open and close with every spark. Basicly they close and current goes throught the points. This system has it's problems. off the top of my head. 1. Points style systems cant operate at much more than 30,000 volts with out frying the points(typical for it to be at 20,000 volts) 2. Even at the normal voltage, points wear out with time. 3. ponits style ignition allows current to flow to more than one plug at one time at high RPMs, hense why they are NO good for anything above 4,500 RPMs(current can either flow at the points, or at the contacts of the small distributor cap of points style ignition)

HEI: Has no points to burn out, or cause arcing. HEI setups from the factory run at between 35,000-40,000 volts(hense the bigger plug gaps) and can generate a much better spark. HEI setups usually have the big bulky cap with the module on top to prevent arcing in the cap from contact-rotor-contact. HEI caps usually have an electronic spark control module, eliminating the mechanical points/cam and allowing spark to flow on a stock setup at or to near 7,000 RPMS.

Now all this is just off the top of my head in my current state, so if I got something wrong, your more than welcome to correct, or add to it.

Points(like the TH-350's!!!) are a thing of the past, they are almost totaly useless, and for todays cars they ARE totaly useless. It's liek comparing a computer composed of vacuum tubes to a computer composed of transistors, it is a thing of the past and should be buried!

 

i dont think points are all that bad if you got a stock or mild engine. if the engine is hopped up and i wanted to use points i would get duel points..... shure the potential is not their but they work great and i consider them dependable. i have them in my 58 chevy, all my tractors and even my 1968 push mower that i use every week. i do NOT mind tho taking the distributer cap of now and then to check them. its just something you got to do with points. also i have never had points just "poop" out on me like my HEI has before. and when the HEI took a crap i didnt know what was wrong (module). but with points its all right their infront of you! strait forward and simple(mechanical). however HEI is hard to beat if you dont like to be "anoyed" by poping the hood to change them every now and then. if you have 3 deuces on a chevy you cant use a HEI anyways! also their are other systems for ignition systems, like magnetos. they do not need a battery. so you have no wires going to the distributer other than a kill switch. you might be familiar with magnetos on push mowers, tractors, or race cars.

 

BTW, its not a stupid question. we all had to learn it at one point..... i asked the same question when i was 16. i still didnt understand it so i got a bunch of books from the libuary and started reading. i never stopped. cant learn to much or ask to many questions!

 

Nope! Not a stupid question, just smart *** replies j/k

 

Thanks for the replies. Yeah I'm familiar with magnetos. I'm pretty sure that's what I got on my go-kart engine. Since there's no battery that's the only way the sparkplugs can get their electricity from.
I wonder why they stopped using them in cars?

Mike

 

I would assume, that with magnetos are not used much in autos anymore because with a closed electrical system you still need to get it started. You've seen the old movies, the guy at the front has to give the propeller a good yank. I suppose the racing magnetos are used in conjuntion with an enternal stater. I don't know what they use in street. A seperate starter system, with a battery?

 

Thanks for the replies. Yeah I'm familiar with magnetos. I'm pretty sure that's what I got on my go-kart engine. Since there's no battery that's the only way the sparkplugs can get their electricity from.
I wonder why they stopped using them in cars?

Mike

They still do use them in cars, they are called "Alternators" Technologies change my friend, we all still can't rely on pull start engines and points setups

 

87442lover,
tell ya what, I trust my arm and a rope (or crank) more than I trust a battery full of lead, acid, water, battery cables,wires, a solinoid, a starter motor and a bendix!!!! my arm has not failed me yet! obviously one way is easyer, but the other keeps ya in shape! :thumbup:

 

87442lover,
tell ya what, I trust my arm and a rope (or crank) more than I trust a battery full of lead, acid, water, battery cables,wires, a solinoid, a starter motor and a bendix!!!! my arm has not failed me yet! obviously one way is easyer, but the other keeps ya in shape! :thumbup:

You go ahead and use that arm!
tell you what, I have a 67 Sunbeam Alpine, and it has the hand start crank setup. 4 cylinder, 8.5:1 compression, and I cannot start that damn engine to save my life with the hand crank. I just love my lead acid battery, cables, solenoid, and starter motor!
And mind you, I can easily lift 300 lbs. consistantly, so no, I am not a wimp, but brains over brawn..... I'll turn a key before turning the crank by hand!

 

Thought I'de throw my 2 cents worth in...

If I had AAA towing and was driving around town and there's a repair shop near by and I had a credit card in my pocket and a cell phone on my hip, I'de take a HEI system anytime.

On the other hand....

If I was in the woods and out of cell phone range and there was noone around to help, I'de take a points system.

Once you learn the basic (install, set, & troubleshoot) info about points, they are pretty much idiot proof. In a pinch, I can use the screwdriver and fingernail blades on a Leatherman knife to get them working again. You certainly can't say that about HEI.

Is one better than another? You bet!! It just depends on the perspective of your current situation.

 

Points....

Doc Hereimp:

In defense really of neither....

points does have one thing over HEI...

I've never heard of anybody filing and regapping their ECM after the Engine quit, to get it running again, 100 miles out in the sticks...In a Snow storm,....in the dead of night....with Bigfoot on the horizon....LOL :evil:

Actually Performance , reliability , and abuse wise HEI has it all over Points...And it's so easy to maintain and troubleshoot.

However, If you have a Show, non strip, Retro Rod and don't mind the extra "Adjustments" Involved points can be an adventure too....You get to learn new words ...Like Dwell Angle...

As to the "Why Don't They use Mags Anymore ?" Question...Top Fuelers Use 2 of them! along with Duel plugs.

Also, ALL Piston type Aircraft use Duel Mags, (with a very few exceptions of Experiential Aircraft with Automotive type Engines installed) and duel plug systems. Very Reliable system.

Doc imp:

 

Old school and doc

Didn't points give way about the time compression dropped. It seem that the more pressure you put gas under, the less spark it took to exnite it. Hence, low compresson, hoter spark, lower octane fuel boom bat a bam. Hey nobody told how much cheaper it was to tune with the points system, the parts were about 1/4 as much. Hey run what you brung.

 

Re: Old school and doc

Didn't points give way about the time compression dropped. It seem that the more pressure you put gas under, the less spark it took to exnite it. Hence, low compresson, hoter spark, lower octane fuel boom bat a bam. Hey nobody told how much cheaper it was to tune with the points system, the parts were about 1/4 as much. Hey run what you brung.

Doc Hereimp:

Thinking back, yeah you might be right I guess it was about or just before ,the same time as the Fuel crisis set in and Imports were the word of the day...so were long lines at the pump...

Gone are the days of the "GAS WARS"when you could buy gas for 19 cents a gallon, get your windows washed, battery checked fan belt adjusted, tires checked and a hand full of S&H GREEN STAMPS....

If you uttered $2.85 cents a gallon Someone would likely as not speak up and say "Ohhh , what color are you painting the house?"....

H*LL , Flying "A" was a place to buy fuel, not the name you called the guy that raised the price just before you filled up....

Also what went out with that was having to pull and clean the plugs because of lead fouling....Remember that stuff??

Yup, Points are much cheaper to tune, If you figure $3.50 for a set and 2 bucks for a capacitor, Vs 30 bucks for an ECM...Plugs and wires are about the same though considering although you never needed the bigger wires, didn't we all buy them?

I don't know , If I had a retro rod, with points in it, and I wasn't racing it, I'd probably leave that way just for grins....(Besides, what the H*LL would I do with all these tools?) However, If I had a highway car with points, HEI would be the first thing to go in..

...Doc imp:

 

yeah it realy depends what ya want to do with your engine. its your preferance. i personaly want a magneto! like docvette says they use them on aircraft... infact they are the same mags that were used on farm equipment. i just wish i could find a magnteo with vacuum advance for a SB chevy.... becides mag's look cool, and you can get em with a mechanical tach drive.

and about crank starting a car, i never have, only stationary engines.... with one cylinder.. lol

 

I think Stacey David from Trucks built and engine with a distributor that looked like a magneto but was either HEI or Points (cant remember) inside. If I'm correct that was the engine that went on the "hairy hauler".

Mike

 

HEI vs Points

AS 1 of the dinosaurs who has been dragged kicking and screaming into the electronic age even i have to admit HEI is the only way to go, yup points will get you home but very rarely does the hei ever fail. As for performance anyone that knows has to admit spark timing and voltage, holding rpms etc hei has it all over. Even put it into my baby 67 p/u, hey one wire and you're done. If you are worried about failure just put together a cap and coil extra rotor and a spare module all are easy to change on the road and get ya going, and not very expensive for peace of mind.

 

true, HEI's are easy, you just pop em in and hook up your wire. they are also great for a stock to mild built engine in stock form and they do an awsome job as long as they work.... but they have the disadvantage of being HUGE, and ugly .. as for failure, i have had the HEI in my chevelle fail (stupid module), yet none of my tractors (which really take a beating (but they are low RPM)) have had their points fail, they have required maintenance but never just quit, was always a gradual thing. I guess if you want performance that you can set and forget its HEI, points are for the less modifyed engines with owners that love getting dirty, however in the hands of a good mechanic i think a duel points set up is respectable performance wise but it just dont have the potential that electronics have. then again it dont get any simpler than points.

 

points are out dated and hardly worth learning about. I cam directs the spark, gap directs the dwell, that's about it. If you're goign to buy a book on something, get something on efi or distributorless ignition. THese are the wave of the future-

K

 

we could argue over this all year. but their is a fact. points are NOT dead. i deal with them on almost a daily basis... many motors use them as a primary ignition source or as a backup system. they have their place just like electronics have theirs... some aircraft have electronic ignition systems... but they always still have a magneto (points) for a backup... and as for hardly worth learning about, come on, what kinda statement is that. just because they have been around since their have been motors does not make them unimportant. becides, lots of them are still in use, i mean, puting high energy electronic ignitions is not a very popular bolt on for tractors or old mowers. points are fine. old may be just that, old, but they are simple, a good place to START learning and to learn principles and build up on.

by the way, by dealing with them i dont mean always fixing but using them.. ;-)