Yep. That's a problem.

 

i figured, why would the stock springs do it as well

 

There doesn't look like a spring seat in the head. Or possibly it's filled will shims if it's there. Can't tell from here.

 

more pictures

 

The valve spring seat should be at least .0010" larger in diameter than the base of the valve spring. There is no limit how much larger the spring seat can be if the inside diameter of the valve spring in no more than .0010" larger than the valve guide. Those dimensions will prevent valve spring oscillation (dancing) on the head at high RPM. Unstable valve springs can fatigue and can break the bottom coils.

That is one reason hardened internal and external spring seat locators are available. The other reason is for use on aluminum heads.

 

the retainers that came with springs have .870 where it goes into spring. my springs are 1.26" . the the holes in the original spring seats are .570"

 

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rsc-pac-s111/overview/

these work

 

A Comp Cams valve seat cutter cuts the valve guide to .560" OD so the .570" ID internal locators will fit the valve guides with .005" clearance and that solves the problem of spring seats on aluminum heads but that does not solve the problem with fitting the valve springs to the locators.

The problem that still remains is finding valve springs with the correct lift, open and seat pressures for your engine with a ID that fit the locators with no more than .005" clearance.

 

already cut for .570 inside diameter locators. i believe the one i posted will be perfect and my springs will be a 1.75" loike there supposed to

 

guides are .560 now the shims under the locators have a .65 hole

 

new flat tappet springs are first, and original roller springs second. the inside diameter is the same.

https://youtu.be/qb5LX3tg-yY

You really need to accommodate 3 dimensions for an ID type locator:


1) The OD of the locator needs to be as large or preferably larger than the spring OD. But it would be ideal if you can get one that fills the machined spring seat OD as this protects the head from these smaller dia. springs from slipping over the edge of 1.25 or so OD locators onto the aluminum of the head.


2) The center of the locator has to fit two things at once fit over the OD of the guide and support the ID of the spring:


A. The ID of the cup or inside lip has to fit around the upper guide OD with as little clearance as possible to minimize sideways accelerations of the locator by actions of the spring working on it.


B. The OD of the inside lip has to fit inside the ID of the spring with little clearance. Enough so it can't bind the spring but enough that the spring can't develop any significant sideways accelerations.


As an aside thought for large OD springs it is better to use a cup style locator that centers on the guide while forming an OD lip outside the base of the spring. These would fill the spring seat and hold spring alignment on the springs OD. But this won't work with the 1.25 size springs.


Bogie

 

thanks a bunch it sounds like the pac ones i found are perfect can i use the shims i already have? or should i buy .570 ones. the ones i have are .645

 

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-4705-16/overview/ or these

 

The same problem exists for the top of the valve springs. You should use retainers that fit the valve springs and are short enough to be no closer than .090" clearance from the valve guides at maximum valve lift. That measurement is before the positive stop valve seals are installed.

The is why I would use Comp Cams 941-16 valve springs and the Comp Cams 750-16 10-degree steel retainers and keepers that are recommended to be used with those valve springs.

Many people just buy valve springs and use stock retainers in order to save a few bucks for beer. I know you are not one of those guys.

 

Thanks Mouse! I bought the springs retainers and locks as a kit, they are the ones that lunati recommends for my cam. Now hopefully the locater I got on the way will work..
The new retainers are .870 where they go into spring, and the locators I found are 8.75. I think everything will be just dandy. i will report back when parts arrive

 

ok got my parts in. the locater fit the spring just fine doesnt stick but is tighter than the retainer that came with springs, also the located is slightly larger than outside diameter of springs... shims fit guide and take up most of the pocket. also spring installed height is perfect now with locator and .030 shim.

What do you all think? i think everyhting is golden now

 

The spring locator ID must fit the valve guide OD with .005" clearance. That is why most valve spring locators are .570" ID for a .560" OD valve guide. Comp Cam offers a valve guide cutter tool that cuts a .560" valve guide.

I went through this with my 1991 Chevrolet S-10 Blazer. I set up a pair of 1991 Chevrolet V6 heads with a factory roller cam and used Pioneer RV943X valve springs for a Chevrolet Z28 engine. I removed the flat damper inside those springs and they fit the V6 valve guides perfectly. The Pioneer-Elgin RV943X valve springs are popular with the Chevrolet Z-28 crowd.

 

they are 5.60 guides

 

This is the figures I recorded for my 1991 Chevrolet S10 Blazer 4.3L V6 heads:
Comp Cams 4776-16 spring Locators:
.570" ID locator register fitted to valve guides machined to .560" OD
.790" OD locator register fitted to .785" ID valve spring w/o flat damper
1.300" OD x .060" thick locator fitted under 1.255" OD Pioneer valve springs

Pioneer RV943X valve springs
117 lb @ 1.700" spring height

Removing the flat damper inside the valve springs has little effect on spring rate.
I attempted to use GM beehive valve spring but gave up. I could not get it right.

 

locator have .010 clearance

 

how about retainer to seal clearance? its at about .650 my cam is .511

 

According to your figures, you have 0.139" clearance between the retainer and valve seal at maximum valve lift. The accepted minimum clearance is 0.090" so your clearance is good with plenty to spare.

In 1965, I had a Chevrolet 30-30 Duntov cam in a new 1965 327 over the counter short block my 1956 Chevrolet and I was using 1957 283 Power Pack heads. That cam had .485" valve lift and there was only 0.450" clearance between the GM retainer and the valve guide boss. I had the valve guides machined .125" and machined for PC teflon positive stop seals. I was also using vintage Crane aluminum retainers which are .090" shorter than GM retainers. The Crane retainers and most other high performance aftermarket retainers are not designed to hold stock O-ring seals so they will provide a extra .090" valve guide to retainer clearance.

I was using new GM valve springs set up at 90 lb. at 1.700". That is too weak and too close to coil bind for a cam with .485" valve lift. The valve springs were good for 6,000 RPM until I finally broke a spring and the engine swallowed a valve. I was lucky, the only damage to my engine was a broken spring, bent valve and chipped cylinder wall. Even the valve guide was still good.

Strange but true, I was racing a Edsel at the time! I still beat him even after I lost a cylinder.

 

more pictures, i appreciate the help

 

Looks good from my house.

 

Got it all sorted and heads installed running great. No more smoke https://youtu.be/tVx6IPOWU9M
https://youtu.be/MVBpcM-YgnY

 

An old time drag racer and engine builder told me that you need the same clearance between the guide and retainer as you need between the coils of the valve springs a maximum valve lift. The accepted valve spring between the coil clearance is .050" at maximum valve lift. That makes the retainer to guide clearance .050". He was probably not taking in consideration of the valve seals, which would add at least .060" to the .050" guide to retainer clearance.

I feel like that is too close and my broken valve spring proved it. Personally, I like at least .060". between each coil of the valve springs, especially if you have valve springs that are too weak for the valve lift your camshaft has. Valve springs that are too weak for the task can bounce on the seats and the coils can serge and collide at high RPM. However, if the valve spring pressure is too high, you cannot use no lead gas , you risk premature valve train wear and exhaust valve seat erosion.

The design of the camshaft lobes has a large effect on the required valve spring pressure. Stock high performance camshafts have cam lobes with lazy acceleration ramps so they can use weaker valve springs in order to prevent excessive valve train wear and avoid warranty problems. Aftermarket camshafts have fast acceleration ramps and require higher valve spring pressure.

 

these are the springs recommended by lunati for the cam i have

Type: Single With Damper
O.D. Outer: 1.260"
I.D. Outer: .876"
I.D. Inner: N/A
Coil Bind: 1.028"
Seat Load: 98 @ 1.750"
Open Load: 330 @ 1.250"
Rate (lbs/in): 462

 

U The previous owner of my 1962 Chevrolet 327/300 rebuilt the engine in 1968 and used GM 3911068 valve springs for a 1967-1969 Z-28 Camaro.

GM 3863151 camshaft (L-79 engine)
Valve Springs, GM 3911068
Single spring w/damper
1.241" OD
80 lb. Seat load @ 1.700"
229 lb. Open load @ 1.253" (.447" valve lift)
267 lb./in. Rate
1.150" coil bind

These valve springs were used for the high performance SB Chevrolet 327 engines. GM removed the damper and used those valve springs with a different part number in 1991-1994 Chevrolet 4.3L V6 engines and a roller camshaft.

No valve float with 5,700 RPM shift points and a 3.36:1 rear gear ratio.

 

The lifters used with L-79 cam in my engine when it was rebuilt were standard GM hydraulic lifters. No trick stuff.

Those lifters begin to pump up at 5,300 RPM and the valves float by 5,700 RPM but only if they have been lashed out to .005" preload instead of the normal .060" preload. Lashing the lifters out to .005" will add about 300 RPM to engine RPM capability before valve float. The previous owner rebuilt the engine in 1986 and used all GM parts. He was a counterman at McDonald Chevrolet in Sallisaw Oklahoma, where he bought my 1962 Chevrolet Bel Air 2-door sedan.