Verify that you have spark -even with a new coil. Take a plug and wire, ground out the plug on the engine somewhere and crank it to see if you get a good blue/white spark. You can test each plug wire like this if you care too but it sounds like there isn't any ignition happening.

 

The FE like the SBC turns the oil pump shaft as the distributor is pulled although the FE uses a hex shaft instead of a spline it hardly ever just drops in on time. It’s a two step process of marking the outside of the distributor with reference to the intake and positioning the rotor at number one firing. So at this point my question is whether or not you performed both rituals?

The flooding and running rich sounds like too much fuel pressure which isn’t a classic mechanical fuel pump failure mode but does happen. It could be grit arriving in the fuel, especially if the original carb is a Ford model 4100 as these have the main metering and power valve facing up from the bottom so any gunk flowing with fuel settles onto and into these systems. in particular the power valve leaking because of dirt caught on its seat is a common ailment

Points, rotor, condenser,,,egad,,, that’s like caveman technology. The Ford uses an external resistor though the exotic T-Bird might use a rocket science resistive wire like Chevrolet to knock down the battery voltage to a points friendly 6 to 9 volts; a wiring failure here can effect either getting it starated and or keeping it running once it fires. The Ford points distributor was, or in your case, is notorious for top bushing wear which constantly changes the dwell time regardless of the gap setting you made in the shop. The same can be said for the mechanical advance system that is under the plate which mounts the points they wear on the pivots and get stuck somewhere from closed to full open.

These funky old cars have lots of oddball failure modes that back in the day supported a gas station with working garage on each corner of every intersection in America. So let that be an indicator of what you’re up against.

Bogie

 

Thanks for replies.

Chasracer, I will test the plugs this afternoon.

The FE like the SBC turns the oil pump shaft as the distributor is pulled although the FE uses a hex shaft instead of a spline it hardly ever just drops in on time. It’s a two step process of marking the outside of the distributor with reference to the intake and positioning the rotor at number one firing. So at this point my question is whether or not you performed both rituals?

Yes, I did do both. When reinstalling the distributor it first went in one tooth off, but then I turned the oil pump shaft a bit and got it in the correct tooth. The rotor is lined up with #1 at TDC and the distributor is back in the same spot.

T-Bird might use a rocket science resistive wire like Chevrolet to knock down the battery voltage to a points friendly 6 to 9 volts; a wiring failure here can effect either getting it starated and or keeping it running once it fires.

When I static timed the distributor right after putting it in, my voltmeter read 12.5 volts from were the coil wire is attached to the points. Is this a problem?

As for the fuel pressure, it is my understanding it is supposed to be 4-6 psi. I tested fuel pressure, but my gauge only went down to 5 psi. The needle didn't move, so I wouldn't think there is too much pressure.

The Ford points distributor was, or in your case, is notorious for top bushing wear which constantly changes the dwell time regardless of the gap setting you made in the shop. The same can be said for the mechanical advance system that is under the plate which mounts the points they wear on the pivots and get stuck somewhere from closed to full open.

When I removed the distributor I checked the mechanical advance and it seemed in working order. The springs were ok and it was not stuck. Nothing seemed to be loose or excessively worn on the distributor, but how do I tell if the top bushing is worn?

These funky old cars have lots of oddball failure modes that back in the day supported a gas station with working garage on each corner of every intersection in America. So let that be an indicator of what you’re up against.

Yes, I kind of gathered that. My grandpa has A LOT of stories to tell about the odd problems he had on his cars back in the day.

 

Update:

All 8 plugs have a good white spark.

My grandpa's friend who used to be a mechanic helped out today. (Well, I guess I helped him.) We messed with the distributor a few times, cleaned up and regaped the points, adjusted timing. It fired up and ran ok, good enough to stay alive to pull out of the garage. Still loads up and is running real rich. Checked the dwell and it is rock solid at 28, my Motor's book says it should be 26-31. We timed it with a timing light and with the vacuum advance removed and plugged and the timing was moving around a bit, but stayed about 6-8* BTDC. we took to tuning the carb, leaning out the idle mixtures because it was running so rich. Did not help at all. It ran best at factory settings. The fuel level was too high in the carb, so we adjusted the floats so that the fuel level was correct, still didn't help. The more we worked on it, the worse it ran, even after returning things to the way it was originally. Towards the end, I checked the timing again and it was moving all over the place, from TDC to around 14* BTDC. ??? Could this be the mechanical advance causing problems like you mentioned Bogie?

One thing I noticed today is that there is trans fluid coming out of the vacuum check valve for the power brake booster. The check valve is currently out of the booster because the booster leaks internally and applies the brakes as soon as you start it. I have the check valve plugged with a bottle cap and duct tape. (I know it's not ideal, but that's how it has to be until I get the booster rebuilt.) Anyway, the friend suspects that the diaphragm in the transmission to control the shifts is bad and the engine is sucking in trans fluid. Do you think this is causing it to load up and run rich?

Thanks,
Nate

 

Update:

My grandpa's friend who used to be a mechanic helped out today. Anyway, the friend suspects that the diaphragm in the transmission to control the shifts is bad and the engine is sucking in trans fluid. Do you think this is causing it to load up and run rich?

Thanks,
Nate

Could be. You will see white smoke from ATF burning off though, not black. It actually cleans the inside of the engine is what the old timers say.
But do like Rwenuts said and plug those ports off for now.
Deal with the other issues after you get it purring.

 

Easy to find out.
Plug it off where it enters the carb.
And the line to the booster. Plug it better.
Vacuum caps are available.

 

Alright, I'll try that out. Thanks!

 

Sat for 25 years , do you have an inline fuel filter , probably a loot of crap in the fuel system if it sat that long & wasn't cleaned of replaced ...also , the flexible lines deteriorate ..

 

Yes, that's what my grandpa thought too, so before I tried to start it at all, I replaced the gas tank and all the gas lines and hoses. The fuel filter is a canister type on the fuel pump, and when I replaced the fuel pump a new filter came with it.

Thanks

 

Just noticed you're from Peoria ,welcome ,, from up the road a piece ,in Ottawa ..

 

Nice. Yep, I'm just down the river a ways.

 

Yeah, points erode on one side and deposit on the other which messes up the dwell so they need to be dressed or replaced, back in the day replacement was on 10,000 mile intervals or less with one or two dressings in between. The issue is caused by a spark every time they open for sure and sometimes as they close. The condenser is there to minimize this bot does not eliminate it. I had one set that welded together pulling the contact clean off one side. Cruising down old US 395, the engine just stopped. Fortunately I carried a spare and got going again. There were good reasons for the average person to belong to AAA back then.

If you are seeing ATF at the carburetor/intake manifold end of the vacuum modulator hose, this means the vacuum modulator diaphragm is ruptured and leaking ATF it will require replacement.

Bogie

 

Yeah, I will look into that diaphragm for sure. All the diaphragms in the original carb and fuel pump were shot, so that modulator likely a problem, I just hope it's THE problem causing this loading up. The smoke I was seeing yesterday was definitely lighter that before, now that I think about it. As for the points situation, I won't be driving any further from home than around the block without spare points and a condenser for good measure, and I'll tell my grandpa to add the Tbird to his Good Sam roadside assistance policy.

Thanks Bogie!

 

Ok, I plugged the vacuum completely. The engine still loads up, but not as bad as before. I think it is just a tuning issue now, since I was turning most of the adjustments on the carb out of wack while it sucking trans fluid. Didn't have time to mess with it a whole lot today, but it is looking better. That modulator valve is going to be a sizable job by itself, I'll have to drop the exhaust and the crossmember to access it. (Great engineering Ford, thanks a lot.) Thanks to all who responded!

Nate

 

Good stuff.
Well, not the aggravation of having to move all that crap for access of course.

 

A few things, If and when you replace points, use a dwell meter to set them. If you use feeler gauges, you can contaminate them.
You mentioned a Holley carb. Is it an actual holley, or a holley base ford carb? A holley will have 2 float bowls each attaching with 4 screws that are horizontal from the front and rear. A holley pattern ford carb has a top plate to access the float bowls, screws are vertical through the top plate.
The Holley has external float adjustment, there is a large screw with a 5/8 nut on top of each float bowl, near the fuel inlet side. The screw locks the adjustment and the nut adjusts the float level. The proper level is determined by removing a screw on the passenger side of the float bowl about 2/3 of the way up the bowl. The screw head is about 1/2" dia. and is brass. Fuel should appear at the the bottom edge of the hole, not gush out. To correct level, loosen lock screw on top of bowl, and turn 5/8 nut clockwise to lower level,CCW to increase it. Do this with engine running. A little leakage at the adjustment is normal during adjustment, but will stop once the lock screw is tightened.
This style of Holley also has a Power valve in the metering block, between the fuel bowl and the main body. It is essentially a bypass circuit to the main jets. It is a spring/vacuum valve, vacuum closes it- spring opens it. At idle{high vacuum} it is closed, at which time the main jets are in control. Under load{low vacuum} it is open, allowing fuel to bypass the main jets to allow for enrichment under load.
What all this is leading up to, is having crap in the fuel system can hold the float open, or hold the power valve open. Or if the diaphragm on the power valve is old and cracked, then you have a direct path from vacuum to fuel.
If that is the case, if you look down the carb while it is running, you will see fuel dripping from the booster venturies.

Too much fuel, or crappy spark look a lot alike, except for the dripping venturi.

The ford carb functions much the same except it has no external float adjustment and repair is more of a pain.

 

I read some of your later post, you mentioned the timing jumping around. What is your vacuum at idle, should be 16-18". Low vacuum and bouncy timing could be a sign of a sloppy timing chain, which the FE engine was noted for.
To check the chain, remove the distributor cap. Use a breaker bar on the crank and turn the engine in direction of rotation to a point slightly after TDC, I think there is a 5* ATDC mark, the turn the engine opposite direction of rotation while watching the rotor in the distributor. As soon as it moves, stop turning the crank. Look at the timing marks. The difference from the first mark to the second is 1/2 of the play in the timing chain. And since the distributor is cam driven also effects ignition timing.
The FE engine had a nylon covered cam sprocket that was quiet but not very durable, especially over time.

 

Whoa, thanks for all the info.

It is an actual Holley. I just bought it about a month ago, so it should not have a cracked diaphragm. It is a 670 cfm (I said it was a 650 in an earlier post, I was mistaken) vacuum secondaries. It has the float adjustment with the 5/8 wrench like you mentioned, but it has sight glasses in the side so you can see the fuel level. I have adjusted those to the correct level that the instruction manual says. The idle mixture screws are still not right, but I ran short of time to work today.

As for the bouncing timing, I don't know why, but it is pretty darn close now. After plugging the vacuum today I started it and checked timing, it was way advanced. I turned the distributor and got it to stay within 1* of 6* BTDC with very little bouncing. I have read about that nylon gear. I will check the play like you mentioned. How many degrees of play is acceptable?

Thanks.

 

With new parts, it might show 4* at crank, because of play in distributor gears. I have had them run out of timing marks which hardly run.
The main problem is that wear=late cam timing, but the distributor is cam driven, and you set ignition timing to crank marks through the late cam timing. It's as confusing to the engine as it is to explain.
The problem really shows up in idle vacuum as low vacuum at idle.
In advanced cases you will get a pop back through carb as you accelerate.

 

Well, I don't have a vacuum gauge, so I'll just have to get myself an early Christmas present. Also, the engine has 81k miles. Several guys on the Ford truck forum mentioned having problems at 100-120k, so with its age and all, that pesky timing chain may just be the problem... Anyway, I'll check it out.

Thanks a lot,
Nate

 

Autozone or napa should have them, cheap. It will help you set your idle mix too.

 

Yeah, probably a good investment since I'm planning on having more of these old cars in the future. Man, once my uncle took me for a ride in his 63 Chevy II with a 355 and all the goodies I was hooked!

 

 

Harbor freight shows one for $16

 

I was just about to check! And I got a 20% off coupon too.
thanks

 

Well, I checked the play in timing chain. There is a 5*ATDC mark like you mentioned MGK, so I did the test and the crank showed just a hair past TDC. So around 5 1/2* play at the crank.

 

If you're saying 5 1/2° total slop , that's fine , as in not a problem

 

Bouncing timing indicates several things:

- Distributor itself;
—- dwell is changing through to loose a clearance of the shafting in the distributor that includes not only the primary shaft but also all objects attached to it that also have freedom of movement. Changes in running dwell are reflected in hangers to timing degrees.

—- dwell is changing as a result of excess thrust clearance on the distributor shaft allowing it to move up and down the gear engagement. This also changes the running timing degrees.

- Timing set;
—- Wear in the timing chain and gears results in herky-jerky motion of the cam which reflects as changes in running timing.

- Camshaft;
—- Wear in the distributor driving gear of the cam will cause timing variations.

—- Wear of the bearings the cam rides in will do this as well as will wear in the cam’s thrust plate interface.

Bogie

 

Thanks for the replies.

Well, the timing wasn't jumping around earlier today like it was on Tuesday. It stayed between 5 and 7*. (???) dwell was also rock solid at 28. I am thoroughly confuzzled by this thing. As long as the timing stays ok, I'll keep messing with the carb. I know it is running way too rich still, just haven't had the time to work too much. I've got 2 tests and 3 reports for next week, (These college professors, they all conspire to make everything due at the same time. ) so there goes working on the Tbird.